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scohen0300
Blue Belt
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:30 am Post subject: Who looks for bunkai? |
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I’m curious! I love my kihon, I love my Kata and I love my Kumite. But does anyone else feel as though they lack motivation for a certain Kata if they can’t find the applications within them? For me, knowing/learning the application seems to give Kata more of a purpose, which motivates me.
I’m lucky to have a Sensei that values the applications within the Kata! But are there any specific styles out there with a focus on bunkai, particularly breaking down the kata? Or does that entirely depend on the instructor?
What’s YOUR style/dojo’s (and individual) view on this?[/url]
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Instagram: @srkdi_pgh
Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:05 am Post subject: |
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I have mixed views on this.
On one hand, I totally get what you mean. Forms without understanding what you're doing is just a rather boring weird dance. There's not even any music.
But here's the thing. If your instructor tells you The application, you will be biased towards that interpretation. That might stop you from exploring and finding your own applications.
Another thing to consider is this. Too often we put our instructors on a pedestal. We assume they know everything. I can tell you they don't. Well some might I guess, I can't say I know every instructor. But my point is, your instructor might not know The application. He might know An application, but he might not want to share it too soon because he might want to see what you come up with all by yourself.
Also, what if there is no application? Martial arts is not about techniques. Techniques can't be relied upon. Techniques carry far too many prerequisites. Techniques are just an application of principles, a shift of weight here, a rotation there. What if a form/kata was created to train these principles, rather than specific applications? Then The application simply doesn't exist, but there will be many applications of the principles conveyed. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: |
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If there's no application in said Kata, then there's no Kata, whatsoever. An application can be just the technique seen in said Kata. A seen punch, kick, "block", and strike can be just that within said Kata.
Please don't misunderstand me because I'm a staunch proponent of Bunkai of all types, and will always be so. Oftentimes, practitioners look for applications, especially on the Oyo side of the fence, to just find an application even if the effectiveness of it isn't there whatsoever.
Imho!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Onekickwonder,
Although I understand your thought process I disagree with it.
Being shown the applications opens the students mind and give understanding. You do not stop learning once you’ve been shown Tichiki. If fact the opposite is true. We teach what we call the founders applications, literal translation applications and developed applications.
You learn the founders applications first, which we are taught are the applications passed down from the founder. Then once those have been learned we teach what we call literal translation applications. These are literally the punch, kick, block scenarios that you see being taught in most Dojo. This give the student a better understanding of what they represent and on a generic rudimentary level what it can also represent. After months of going through these individually and in two person drills and after becoming somewhat second nature, the student is then shown what we call developed applications or what most call practical applications. We teach them a few scenarios to get the mind of the student engaged and then have them look for other possibilities with two rules in mind; they must be efficient and effective and they must have the potential to end the fight.
The student is not stuck in a rut. It’s the opposite. It opens the mind to possibilities and gives a deeper understanding of their art and the Kata’s within the art. The student can then realize how one Kata can be an entire art.
And to answer your question about what if there is no application... the founders did not throw fluff into the Kata. Every movement represents something. If your instructor does not know what a particular movement or series of movements represents find someone who does or trace the origins to where the Kata came from and see what their applications are.
What westerners call Bunkai, is the key to understanding your art. Without this knowledge it’s just random punches, kicks, and what most perceive as blocks. Basically an orchestrated dance of techniques.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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scohen0300
Blue Belt
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Then I ask all of you,
Why is it that I see Americans, Europeans, and all other cultures EXCEPT for the Okinawans looking for these “practical applications?”
I study the Matsubayashi side of Shorin Ryu and the only applications I can find *anywhere* from Okinawans are the straight forward blocks are blocks, chest punches are punches at the chest, etc.
Trying to make sense as to why it seems to me like the Okinawans are the only ones that aren’t interested in discovering, sharing OR practicing the effectiveness of their arts. My dojo takes yearly trips down to the Nagamine dojo (and others on the island) and they never go over practical applications.
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Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169
Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I saw a video of Sensei Rick Hotton where he touched briefly on this. He said something along the lines of that he likes bunkai and finds it in general useful, but also not totally the point of kata. His evidence is these weird bunkai/applications that are like, “really?” and you just know the creator had to get very, very (too) creative to make them work.
He stresses more the principles that the kata teaches, something like what OneKickWonder was saying. And he even mentioned - while kata does not have music it does have rhythm. And feeling super connected with oneself and nature in his opinion is much more important than doing a technically perfect kata. “Find your own kata”, he said.
Although I’m sure there’s room for both, and I think that’s kind of what he said. But I do agree that it’s not all about finding application, I think that would be missing something essential.
I’m on the road now (not the driver!) so I haven’t been able to double check these videos, but I’m pretty sure I was mostly true to Sensei Hotton’s words. But here are the videos which I find quite interesting for anyone interested in this topic (5~ minutes total):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=be864NFMS7I - Kata and Bunkai
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fIuamyp3HLA - Competion Kata vs. One’s Own Kata |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Onekickwonder,
Although I understand your thought process I disagree with it.
Being shown the applications opens the students mind and give understanding. You do not stop learning once you’ve been shown Tichiki. If fact the opposite is true. We teach what we call the founders applications, literal translation applications and developed applications.
You learn the founders applications first, which we are taught are the applications passed down from the founder. Then once those have been learned we teach what we call literal translation applications. These are literally the punch, kick, block scenarios that you see being taught in most Dojo. This give the student a better understanding of what they represent and on a generic rudimentary level what it can also represent. After months of going through these individually and in two person drills and after becoming somewhat second nature, the student is then shown what we call developed applications or what most call practical applications. We teach them a few scenarios to get the mind of the student engaged and then have them look for other possibilities with two rules in mind; they must be efficient and effective and they must have the potential to end the fight.
The student is not stuck in a rut. It’s the opposite. It opens the mind to possibilities and gives a deeper understanding of their art and the Kata’s within the art. The student can then realize how one Kata can be an entire art.
And to answer your question about what if there is no application... the founders did not throw fluff into the Kata. Every movement represents something. If your instructor does not know what a particular movement or series of movements represents find someone who does or trace the origins to where the Kata came from and see what their applications are.
What westerners call Bunkai, is the key to understanding your art. Without this knowledge it’s just random punches, kicks, and what most perceive as blocks. Basically an orchestrated dance of techniques. |
This worries me if it's true, because it means that masters of bygone times were as useless in a fight as any of modern times.
Why?
If the applications are meant to be taken at face value, then this suggests that the person that made it up expects us to believe that genuine violence follows a nice predictable pattern. It does not. It assumes that you can tell someone that 'when your attacker throws a straight punch with his right hand towards your head from arms length away at this angle while his other hand does nothing and there are no weapons involved and you see it coming, then you can easily block it like this then punch him in the torso and end the fight instantly'.
I really, really hope that wasn't what the creators of kata / forms really were trying to tell us. |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| scohen0300 wrote: |
Then I ask all of you,
Why is it that I see Americans, Europeans, and all other cultures EXCEPT for the Okinawans looking for these “practical applications?”
I study the Matsubayashi side of Shorin Ryu and the only applications I can find *anywhere* from Okinawans are the straight forward blocks are blocks, chest punches are punches at the chest, etc.
Trying to make sense as to why it seems to me like the Okinawans are the only ones that aren’t interested in discovering, sharing OR practicing the effectiveness of their arts. My dojo takes yearly trips down to the Nagamine dojo (and others on the island) and they never go over practical applications. |
they teach you the fundamentals , going to the next level is yours. knowing a particular technique is not that important (Oyo bunkai) , body mechanics and Koshi is more important.
if you look at people like Ikehara and Shinzato from your organization, these people are at the highest level of understanding body mechanics. see how he moves in his 60s. Hokama (Goju) sensei sent my sensei to meet Ikehara for his understanding of Koshi. look at his Rohai
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2BoCLmqEQ
[/url]
everybody does Naihanchi but look at Shinzato way of doing it.
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZOgFABxEEw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fuzw-oy78
[/url]
so when these people do the same technique (Bunkai) , it is not really the same. that's what we trying to reach.
Ikehara told my sensei that Nagamineh told them that their actual learning of karate starts when they retired and have enough time to practice and refine their movements. that's why in your style they say it takes 10 years to learn Kusanku. |
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scohen0300
Blue Belt
Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 259
Location: It varies
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| P.A.L wrote: |
| scohen0300 wrote: |
Then I ask all of you,
Why is it that I see Americans, Europeans, and all other cultures EXCEPT for the Okinawans looking for these “practical applications?”
I study the Matsubayashi side of Shorin Ryu and the only applications I can find *anywhere* from Okinawans are the straight forward blocks are blocks, chest punches are punches at the chest, etc.
Trying to make sense as to why it seems to me like the Okinawans are the only ones that aren’t interested in discovering, sharing OR practicing the effectiveness of their arts. My dojo takes yearly trips down to the Nagamine dojo (and others on the island) and they never go over practical applications. |
they teach you the fundamentals , going to the next level is yours. knowing a particular technique is not that important (Oyo bunkai) , body mechanics and Koshi is more important.
if you look at people like Ikehara and Shinzato from your organization, these people are at the highest level of understanding body mechanics. see how he moves in his 60s. Hokama (Goju) sensei sent my sensei to meet Ikehara for his understanding of Koshi. look at his Rohai
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2BoCLmqEQ
[/url]
everybody does Naihanchi but look at Shinzato way of doing it.
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZOgFABxEEw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fuzw-oy78
[/url]
so when these people do the same technique (Bunkai) , it is not really the same. that's what we trying to reach.
Ikehara told my sensei that Nagamineh told them that their actual learning of karate starts when they retired and have enough time to practice and refine their movements. that's why in your style they say it takes 10 years to learn Kusanku. |
I see what you’re saying! I’m glad to have your input, however, I have to respectfully disagree with:
“knowing a particular technique is not that important (Oyo bunkai) , body mechanics and Koshi is more important.”
What you’re saying might be the case for some karateka, or even a majority of practitioners within my own style or organization, but it’s not what I’m seeking on my own path. We all have our own reasons for training, don’t we? I believe that practical application is just as important as kihon, kata, body mechanics, whatever you want to add to the list. For my own training, at least.
I choose to train Matsubayashi because the body mechanics, stances, hikite, Everything about the style makes sense to me. I love it, especially the instructor of my dojo, but Knowing the applications give my kata practice more of a purpose, another aspect that makes my appreciate the teachers I have. I feel far more inspired to study ALL aspects of karate if I can see WHY I’m practicing what I’m practicing. For my own path, all of my karate is just as important.
As for your response regarding what Nagamine said, I believe that was a great answer to my question! With that in mind, it sounds like I’m training at the right dojo. LOL. Something I haven’t doubted for a second. I enjoy looking for my own applications, but I’m always fascinated in seeing how others view the breakdown of our kata.
I truly hope I didn’t seem too aggressive or disrespectful in my response!
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Instagram: @srkdi_pgh
Shorin Ryu Karate Do International - Pittsburgh (SRKDI - PGH)
- Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Nidan |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| scohen0300 wrote: |
I choose to train Matsubayashi because the body mechanics, stances, hikite, Everything about the style makes sense to me.
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Your concerns used to be my concerns too and I changed lots of styles and schools till i found the teacher i wanted inside Hokama sensei organization.
the point you missing is that Matsubayashi-ryu is A Karate-DO , this was the vision Nagamine sensei had for his style . you never see somebody say Matsubayashi-ryu karate-jutsu. you expecting to see something which is not part of their path. they tech you the kata and the obvious bunkai and you do yakusoku kumite and sparring. what happens at the beginning of passai frame by frame is not their way of doing things, they tell you how but you wanna know why. you wanna see more detail work on application of kata in self-defense then you need to do it on your own under supervision of your sensei or another teacher. the kata(s) of Matsubayashi ryu are among the purest you can find. your Rohai,Passai and Kusanku are excellent, you can spend years dissecting them like Ikehara in his man cave, he don't even have a commercial dojo. people like tajima or shinzato already done what you have in your mind but on their own way,they do karate-jutsu but it is not part of the classical Matsubayashi ryu. |
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on the post.
