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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Lots of valid comments about this fight.
Still more room or opportunities for opinions.
Such as the contrast between the effectiveness of a skilled tournament point fighter against a person that isn't.
As if this fight was judged as a point tournament fight, she would be considered the winner, yet again, if this fight was on the street with concrete beneath their feet and objects present, she would have been bumping into objects at all angles.
To be continued...
Another look at LUCIA KOVACIKOVA'S fighting abilities, this time, against someone her own size and weight also a female, this time in a tournament setting.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxboq7hELw |
Reminds me a lot of sparring in the ATA, just no sweeps or head punches.
All I could think of the whole match was, "throw a front leg side kick!"
So, she's quick, obviously talented. And pretty aggressive. Those attributes tend to pay dividends in point fighting systems like this. I'll have to watch the first clip to see what that's about.
As for the "on the street" comparisons, well, its sport, not a street fight, so I don't think its necessarily fair to assume or have some preconceived notion of how she would fight should she need to defend herself.
Ok, I've gone back and watched most of the first "fight." I'm not sure what's going on there, as far as that channel. Anyways, a few things that caught my eye... 1, that guy seemed slow. And he didn't seem like he could kick without stepping first, which she picked up on every time. She was basically able to maintain distance and tag him when he was "lagging." I'm not a fast guy, but even I thought he looked slow. 2, what I saw from her was that she was really fast, could close frighteningly fast, but she refused to stay inside, so all he had to do was weather one or two strikes and she was out. She could benefit by staying inside and continue to work some more strikes on him, I think. 3, she was in good shape, and he was not. He was breathing heavy early on. I'm not sure how hard he was trying; maybe he was holding back, or didn't want to be there in the first place, but he did show some frustration later on, and I thought his attempts at grabbing her and doing hammers to her head was a strange tactic.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
This fight is a no contest, due to the male vs female setup.
As the male is standing on low moral ground for fighting a female, whereas the female is given license to try to hurt a male participant.
I recognize and have witnessed this type of scenario in self denfence classes, where the female defends against a male attacker.
Where the male increases the pressure against the female depending on the amount of success she obtains.
This idea of looking more like a self defense situation between a female victim and a male attacker, due to the indoor open space with no apparent exist, all the while, he is not trying to cut off any exists, as if he has the upper hand over her, due to him having the keys to the place and she has no exists whatsoever.
She was expending her energy while he was binding his time, where it would only be a matter of time for her running out of energy to continue.
Therefore in the long run, she would have lost to him due to exhaustion. |
I disagree that this is an example of woman vs man self defense. For one the guy made no attempt at striking her when she was most vulnerable. Every time he gained control he let her go. Her strikes had no purpose other than to score points. Real self defense is not about points. Waiting for her to loose energy? If this was real she would have better served herself by running away from Mr. lazy rather than tapping him multiple times. In a real scenario she would have enraged an attacker not dissuaded him.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
As she is a point tournament fighter, with the referee to create gaps to regain some breath, while awarding points for singular strikes, in this fight however it is the opposite, of what she trains for.
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Again I disagree. The fight went her way IMHO. She was able to bounce around and tap him at will. The guy had no intent whatsoever. Had he mustered up an ounce of rage she would have been tackled and destroyed. This is my issue with point fighting. There is no purpose past getting points and it has no basis of realism whatsoever.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Which brings up the point of, fight the way you train and train the way you fight. |
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
As if this was a real fight or confrontation, one good blow should be followed up with another, then another, and another, to win by using tried and tested skillful fighting techniques.
When she hurt him, instead of backing off, it was the moment to do the opposite and go in with everything she had to finish him.
He was not using any skill against her or excessive viloence because it wasn't necessary for him to and she couldn't hurt him enough to incapacitate or detour him from continuing. |
I could not agree more.
The fight was not an example of when a trained Karateka fights a street fighter. There were most definitely rules set in place. Why else would he allow her to get back to her feet or not engage when she went to the ground? It's because rules were established ahead of time.
Bottom line is she could have done major damage to a sloth like this if she knew how to actually fight. He could have done the same damage if he wasn't the laziest man alive or strapped down with rules that were put on him prior to the fight. I have to believe its one of the two reasons.
Even a person with no training has an aggression level after being hit "x" number of times. He may have been biding his time but what about when that time came and she was down?
It's fake IMHO. A staged fight to bolster the girl and to make the point that girls can fight men. This point could have been made better by a girl that was trained to fight rather than patty cake and a guy that wasn't asleep.
This IMHO was a terrible step backwards for making that point. Yes girls can defend themselves very well against a male attacker and I wholeheartedly believe that, just not like this.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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First off let me welcome you if I had not already to KF Israfilhaque1230.
I appreciate your point of view and you posting it.
As with anything comments and views are subjective. To me, I see what I see and tell it like I see it.
I'll agree that the young lady had skills, just not the type that would have helped her if she didn't have a ton of room to run and bounce around and stay away from the guy IMHO. If this video was of a real comparison and she did her little point fighting bit, she would have been torn apart against someone that meant to do her harm. If anything this video was an exhibition of her tournament skills over real fighting skills.
As far as he is concerned, you say grounded, I say he was a lousy example of a street fighter. He may be from the streets but a fighter he was not.
I do not see a fighter when I watch that video. There was no aggression or intent. I saw no real skill. He essentially watched her do her thing and didn't take advantage of any openings. More so to the point, when he had her down and was in the position to do some damage he allowed her back to her feet. Anyone with a bit of experience would have side stepped her straight lunging punch and dropped her. Having said that I was brought up not to strike girls but in the context of this video, the intent was this style vs. this style and in that context there is the expectation of both fighters to defend themselves. She was IMHO the only one in the fight.
Because this is a forum of idea's and opinions, we will not all be in agreement. That's ok because we get to read other view points and often this will make us think and maybe even learn from the others here.
Having said that I don't want you to think that we pick apart every example of martial arts that is different than ours either. This is a place to express idea's and yes, if asked, to give our opinions. I may be guilty of giving my opinion even when there was no question. 
Again I welcome you and thank you for your post.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
This fight is a no contest, due to the male vs female setup.
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When she hurt him, instead of backing off, it was the moment to do the opposite and go in with everything she had to finish him.
He was not using any skill against her or excessive viloence because it wasn't necessary for him to and she couldn't hurt him enough to incapacitate or detour him from continuing. |
I think it's interesting that your reaction to the female fighter's lack-luster performance was "women are weak," but your reaction to the male fighter's lack-luster performance was "he could have taken her on the street, he just wasn't trying"
 story of my life
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't wow-ed by either of their performances. Just please don't blame half of the people on earth for the mistakes of one female fighter. It's not my fault she fights that way! lol 
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"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Both fighters need to be more bold and confident in their abilities, to finish what they started with some conviction, instead of dancing around the subject, in hopes that the other will miraculously, give up.
She could have switched up her kicking techniques, instead of attacking his lead leg, which he eventually started to check.
Where he was using Saturday night kicks against her, which might work well on unsuspecting drunks coming out of a pub, but on an sober energetic, ready and waiting experienced black belt, I think not.
As he waa telegraphing everything, till eventually the moment of frustration was too much for him, then the acts of desperation set in, by rushing in was his only hope of making contact against her, by grabbing on and hammering, preventing her usual escapes.
To her disadvantage, that he took advantage of, he also stepped up the pressure against her, by not giving her time to let her fix her hair, or straighten out her GI, two things less that he being a male, didn't need to be concerned about as having short hair and not wearing a Gi.
Whereas in competitions, she would have had been allowed ample time to straighten out her hair and Gi, before continuing the fight. |
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
To her disadvantage, that he took advantage of, he also stepped up the pressure against her, by not giving her time to let her fix her hair, or straighten out her GI, two things less that he being a male, didn't need to be concerned about as having short hair and not wearing a Gi. |
While I think most of what you've said is a set of fair "what ifs" to throw in the hat, this last statement, the one that brings back this "women can't fight" aftertaste, just doesn't hold water. You do know that hair length and whether or not you wear a gi are independent of gender, right? I think you need to let go of the idea that her fault was being a woman here. I've seen plenty of male point sparring fighters get thrown down by heavy hitters in class, here and in Japan. This is fair. It just doesn't have to do with sex.
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"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Shizentai wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
To her disadvantage, that he took advantage of, he also stepped up the pressure against her, by not giving her time to let her fix her hair, or straighten out her GI, two things less that he being a male, didn't need to be concerned about as having short hair and not wearing a Gi. |
While I think most of what you've said is a set of fair "what ifs" to throw in the hat, this last statement, the one that brings back this "women can't fight" aftertaste, just doesn't hold water. You do know that hair length and whether or not you wear a gi are independent of gender, right? I think you need to let go of the idea that her fault was being a woman here. I've seen plenty of male point sparring fighters get thrown down by heavy hitters in class, here and in Japan. This is fair. It just doesn't have to do with sex. |
The after taste is yours alone, as I have never stated that "Women can't fight" here or anywhere.
Yes men and women can wear their hair long and wear a Gi, but if it interferes with a person's fighting abilities, these things should be addressed and noted, no matter the gender in Japan or Timbuktu. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I hate to break into your discussion but I have to say that this ONE woman's and this ONE man's demonstration of skills or the lack there of was ridiculous.
Here comes a what if, IF she had been trained outside of the tournament circuit she would have destroyed that sloth. No offense but he was less than less impressive.
In terms of who won the fight, just on shear hits I would have to give it to the woman. Put some power behind those punches and actually follow up and he would have been sleeping on the mat.
The fact is she did no justice to women in the arts and he certainly did no justice to men. It was a set up rule bound joke. Taking a tournament trained athlete and putting her against a guy that looks like he has never been in a fight in his life and bill it as this vs. that makes all MA's look like a joke. The guy did next to nothing and she struck him "x" number of times with absolutely no effect.
Who cares about gender, she did no service for the MA's in general. It was a joke!
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: |
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No matter how good or bad he is, he still lost, due to fighting a girl.
With public opinion against him, would have been worse if he choked or knocked her out.
She on the other hand, couldn't lose even if she did technically, once again, due to public opinion.
With her karate, one hit principle, that works well for strong well conditioned individuals, but not when up against a person who is notably stronger.
If she was going up against a male, then to use Wing Chun, multiple striking techniques, would have been more favorable for her, for this type of fight, that didn't seem to include grappling. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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We sure did put a lot of attention on a demonstration!! To me, that's all it was, a demonstration, no matter how poor I perceived that demonstration to be, and it was poor!!
Imho!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
