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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I used to train in a style that was very exacting with positions--feet had to be at exact angles, body parts had to be at exact distances from other body parts, etc. This is something I have found to be a very Japanese approach to karate, and is mostly for aesthetics, or for their understanding of the mechanics of a technique, which is often (as Wado Heretic suggests) based on the wrong context. Now, there are certainly some important angles and positions in Okinawan karate, and they will be checked and corrected as needed, but I have found this to not happen at the same extremely granular level that Japanese karate does it.
With regard to application, specifically, it's important to remember that the "stances" of karate are not like a "fighting stance" that you use in sparring. You aren't supposed to maintain the stance and move around like you do in jiyu kumite. You are much more likely to have to transition from a natural standing/walking position quickly into one or more stances as you perform defensive techniques that require certain types of weight distribution or structure. The stances are meant to facilitate the applications, which means they are transitory, and meant to tell you how you need to move your body in order to get the technique to work. They are also often exaggerated in order to ensure that the student moves their weight in the proper manner without losing structure. It's also important to note that, under stress, movements tend to get smaller, whether you like it or not, which means that some degree of exaggeration in training is needed to account for that and make sure the technique will still work.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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I admit my limited experience.
When my Sensei has corrected my stances, I have seen immediate improvement in the flow of the kata. While I cannot claim grace, my kata are getting a lot smoother. The corrections have always set up the next move so there is less adjusting.
Also this goes back to the idea of perfect practice in any discipline, especially physical ones. Vince Lombardi said "practice does not make perfect. only perfect practice makes perfect."
By training perfectly, we set ourselves up better to adapt to changes.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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All activities have stances that have been made available through using correct body mechnics, which improves performance.
Keeping the correct balance and structural integrity when practicing or performing a technique will enhance the desired result.
Moving from one movement to another location needs a good understanding of what is the best way necessary to achieve it, stances in motion or stationary position is responsible allowing them to adapt together at will.
Moving from one stance to another, many other things can happen within the moment such as a weaving, a knee strike, a deflection and a strike...
The problem can arise when wanting specifics and answers for everything, including stances, such as, which stance to use when a bull is coming towards you at full speed?
As the answer is, "Just Move" to get out of the way!
There is a saying which I've just made up.
(Only idiots want or need specifics)
Therefore the best stance to use, is the one that is best suited for the moment.
There is a place and time for everything including stances; if your stances are there and strong when you need them, then your CI got through to the common sense, area of your brain.
If you are practicing stances and the CI isn't looking and you slack off, then don't blame the CI if you end up on a McDojo video.
As you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
As you can teach a student stances but you cannot make them to use them.
My suggestion is, stances are not carved in stone, on the contrary they are anything but stationary; even when they look stationery, your engine should be revving like a high performance race car, ready for smoking your tires or ripping off those calluses on the soles of your feet.
There are hundreds of stances, some for fighting with and others for exercising and others for dancing and others for working, or skydiving or swimming ... the list is virtually endless. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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I just touched on this in another post but I will say that stances have their purpose.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
From a martial art Yin/Yang perspective, move around be light footed then strike and be heavy and stable when hitting or controlling the opponent; as doing the opposite you will be on you back, getting pounded, quicker than realizing what happened. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Stances are important, to be for sure. However, they're not the end of all, just part of the whole picture. Put stances in their place before they put you in your place; beginners, and we all use to be one, tend to fall into this much easier.
Thanks for this Wado Heretic...
| Quote: |
Funakoshi also wrote:
“Fixed positions are for beginners: later, one moves naturally.” |
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc.
See this thread...
https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html |
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on the post.
