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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc.
See this thread...
https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html |
I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc.
See this thread...
https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html |
I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg |
Aka...
Kokutsu dachi
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc.
See this thread...
https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html |
I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg |
Aka...
Kokutsu dachi
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Aka back stance, aka L-stance |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
The deep stances are there to help give maximum power to techniques. The way I look at it, the deep and rooted stance is for when you’re delivering the “killing blow” and not for while you’re moving around. This is what I meant earlier when I said the important part is getting into that stance and strike, not being there. If that makes sense, anyway.
Here’s a great way to assess if deep stances are worth it...
If you have a punching bag or access to one it’ll become readily apparent. While in a normal fighting stance, move around and hit the bag as hard as you can. Make sure you’re light on your feet. Then do the same without staying light on your feet, but in a natural stance. Then do the same, only moving forward in a deep karate stance of your choice. Feel the difference? It’s even more apparent with kicks.
If you hit a bag consistently, you’ll notice that you’re light on your feet while moving, and root down when actually striking. Try doing the same thing, only deepen your stance while striking. There’s a happy medium between deep and too deep.
Speaking of that happy medium, there’s one in kata too. There’s a woman at our dojo who’s got stances that could easily be used in a textbook. They’re deep, stable, and strong. We’re envious of it. And she can easily move in them. If I tried hard enough, I could get as deep as she does, and I have once or twice. But I couldn’t get out of them to save my life, and I couldn’t deliver any power out of them. Hen she’s free-sparring and drilling, you can easily see her hit those stances when she hits hard, but she’s not as deep as she is during kihon and kata. If you look at the others sparring, you’ll see the same thing, but not as apparent. But those stances are there for a second or so while the power punch or kick is being thrown; we don’t walk around in them.
As my CI has said many times - the deep stances are great so long as you can quickly get into and out of them. If you can’t, you’re going too deep. Practicing them in kata and kihon will help them naturally get deeper and help you get into and out of them easier. They’re not there for when you’re moving around during kumite; they’re there for when you’re throwing a powerful shot.
My interpretation: They’re part of that finishing move. But you need to be able to get into it and out of it without hesitation, otherwise you’ll be a glorified punching bag. |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
What is “I stance?” As for the chambered hand, if it’s at your side like in kata, there should be something in it, like your opponent’ hand, arm, etc.
See this thread...
https://www.karateforums.com/hikite-just-a-hand-on-the-hip-vt51004.html |
I was referring to this stance, which nobody would take in any no holds barred fight: http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateunion_sku_news/img/back-stance.jpg |
Aka...
Kokutsu dachi
|
Aka back stance, aka L-stance |
Aka...yes indeed!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
| Prototype wrote: |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
You certainly fight how you train but, as I mentioned, self defense situations are quite a bit unlike sport fighting and the way most people spar. The longer, lower stances are often used in a very close-range context--standing grappling, or clinching, for example. Sometimes, they are used to take the opponent down, or move the opponent, or prevent yourself from being moved or taken down, for example. The kokutsu-dachi you point out as being someone nobody would use in a no-holds-barred fight, for example, is absolutely a stance I have seen used in mixed martial arts, as well as judo, sumo, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai--the list goes on. Next time you watch an MMA fight with lots of clinchwork or fighting against the cage, take some time to watch it frame by frame, and you will be surprised just how many karate stances show up. As I said before, though, the stances of karate are NOT meant for you to just stand in and move around. They are snapshots of positions used to make your techniques work, and you may only be in them for a split second.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| Prototype wrote: |
| What rubs me the wrong way is that it is explained in the context of self defence - the application of each stance, when everybody knows that instincts take over in such scenarios and the Karate stances, though stabile, are lacking when it come to mobility..In particular with regards to lateral movement. |
| Prototype wrote: |
You may be able to ingrain the Karate reverse punch from something that resembles the clasical kata stance ( I advice against it though due to the non existent guard while punching=,) but in no way would it hold true for l stance, for an example. It is hardly a natural position to take in a fight. |
You certainly fight how you train but, as I mentioned, self defense situations are quite a bit unlike sport fighting and the way most people spar. The longer, lower stances are often used in a very close-range context--standing grappling, or clinching, for example. Sometimes, they are used to take the opponent down, or move the opponent, or prevent yourself from being moved or taken down, for example. The kokutsu-dachi you point out as being someone nobody would use in a no-holds-barred fight, for example, is absolutely a stance I have seen used in mixed martial arts, as well as judo, sumo, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai--the list goes on. Next time you watch an MMA fight with lots of clinchwork or fighting against the cage, take some time to watch it frame by frame, and you will be surprised just how many karate stances show up. As I said before, though, the stances of karate are NOT meant for you to just stand in and move around. They are snapshots of positions used to make your techniques work, and you may only be in them for a split second. |
Very well explained Wastelander  |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree with all the points so far. Some great explanations in here.
The way I explain it to students is that kata (and kihon) are your ABCs and teach you an ideal position to be in the moment your attack lands. Remember in elementary school where you learn to print letters and words? You learn perfect dimensions and directions for all of your pen strokes. This is kata and kihon, learning the ideal form for all of your stances and movements. Free sparring is like writing in cursive, flowing from letter to letter, where individual letters don't necessarily have perfect dimensions but they are still recognizable.
Prototype, I believe you train(ed) in ITF TKD right? Most high level fighters do spar out of a loose L-stance or back stance.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: |
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There's nothing wrong, imho, with instructors teaching, and emphasizing stances found in Kata. After all, a MAist is learning the MA.
Who's to say that I won't or haven't used Hangetsu Dachi [Half Moon] in real life situation(s); it's a well rooted stance...works well in our brand of Tuite and Close Ranges. A situation might warrant the use of it, after all, as long as I've been on the floor, aren't every stance that I've ever learned natural for me to call upon automatically, and if I can borrow a gem of a saying from Bruce Lee...I do not whatever, it does it all by itself?!?
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
I agree with all the points so far. Some great explanations in here.
The way I explain it to students is that kata (and kihon) are your ABCs and teach you an ideal position to be in the moment your attack lands. Remember in elementary school where you learn to print letters and words? You learn perfect dimensions and directions for all of your pen strokes. This is kata and kihon, learning the ideal form for all of your stances and movements. Free sparring is like writing in cursive, flowing from letter to letter, where individual letters don't necessarily have perfect dimensions but they are still recognizable.
Prototype, I believe you train(ed) in ITF TKD right? Most high level fighters do spar out of a loose L-stance or back stance. |
Key word is "loose" |
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
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It is important to distinguish between stances in a combat sport such as boxing or wrestling, and stances as they are contained within the kata. As Wastelander, and I, have alluded to, and to reiterate: the stances facilitate techniques, they are part of a technique, not a free-fighting stance. If one looks at them from that perspective; you can witness them in combat-sports from Kick-Boxing to Judo.
I have used neko-ashi and kokutsu-dachi to shift my weight as a distance controlling movement in Kick-Boxing, and Shoot-fighting, to give examples from my own experience. In self-defence, I have used them to set up sweeps, when I worked as a doorman. Some very good Karate in MMA videos out there where you can also witness said stances being used.
What I would say though, is not all stance work is in fact practically minded. Many stances, in several disciplines, have been modified for aesthetic reasons, or other impractical considerations. Therefore, I adopted the Shorin-Ryu Kata over the Wado-Ryu kata, because the stances (and the Kata in general, broadly speaking) of Wado-Ryu had become removed from the way I was being shown to perform applications, and general Bunkai theory. In contrast the Shorin-Ryu kata are essentially performed in the manner one does the inferred application.
There is plenty of reasons to criticise stance work; but I would be wary of using one experience, and then to generalise it to a whole range of disciplines. Some karateka place little emphasis on stances, whereas others make a huge point of it. I try to stick to the middle; the stance must fit the individual, not be artificially deep or wide, and facilitate the application effectively against a resisting opponent. I do make people go slightly deeper than I believe they need to in the kata; but that is because I find people quite naturally find the right width for their stance, but will make the mistake of staying too up right.
_________________
R. Keith Williams |
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on the post.
