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SpeedKills
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 38
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: Why dont pro boxers EVER twist the foot? |
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In basic boxing you are taught to twist the foot like putting out a cigarette.
But after watching all the heavy punchers and boxing greats, I have observed that NONE of them do this. Not one time did I see the foot pivot. What I do see instead is a small pushing off the ground alot, and the legs and feet staying in place as the hips rotate violently.
Why do they even teach the foot twist if no good boxer uses it?
Also what method are all the pros using if it isnt the foot twist hows it done? It appears they dont use any leg drive at all, its just a little push from the leg and all hips, while the feet and legs stay mostly still and the hips move.
Heres one of the hardest punchers of all time. Look no foot twist no leg drive its all hips, and a tiny push off the ground. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't train in boxing, but I have actually discussed this with some people who do, including a couple boxing coaches, and it's not so different from the way judo or karate do things. The foot pivot you're talking about teaches you an exaggerated version of the body mechanics necessary to throw the strike effectively. As you get better at applying those mechanics, the motion gets smaller and smaller. Along the same lines, movements become constricted under stress, so in competition, they get even smaller. If you started off with the small motion, it would be more difficult for you to develop the mechanics necessary to be effective, and under stress, you wouldn't do enough and would be left with a weak strike.
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SpeedKills
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't train in boxing, but I have actually discussed this with some people who do, including a couple boxing coaches, and it's not so different from the way judo or karate do things. The foot pivot you're talking about teaches you an exaggerated version of the body mechanics necessary to throw the strike effectively. As you get better at applying those mechanics, the motion gets smaller and smaller. Along the same lines, movements become constricted under stress, so in competition, they get even smaller. If you started off with the small motion, it would be more difficult for you to develop the mechanics necessary to be effective, and under stress, you wouldn't do enough and would be left with a weak strike. |
Great answer thankyou!
I believe they also use a completely different method too, they push off the ground instead of twisting the foot, so there isnt even a subtle twisting of the foot, its literally a push to get the hips working and thats it, no twisting of the foot at all, not even a tiny bit, the foot twist being another way to get the hips working.
I think from what ive seen that they all use the push off method and not a scaled down twist of the foot, but I cant be sure about that, all I know is from the footage Ive watched they push off 1st then rotate the hips to quite an extreme degree, but there is 0 foot twist as in not even a tiny scaled down amount of foot twist. |
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hansenator
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| SpeedKills wrote: |
I believe they also use a completely different method too, they push off the ground instead of twisting the foot, so there isnt even a subtle twisting of the foot, its literally a push to get the hips working and thats it, no twisting of the foot at all, not even a tiny bit, the foot twist being another way to get the hips working. |
My experience with the foot twisting method is, if the movement is shortened like was described above, the heel might come off the ground without a visible twist of the foot. The mechanics are very similar but the movement isn't big enough to carry through to where the foot twists. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't train in boxing, but I have actually discussed this with some people who do, including a couple boxing coaches, and it's not so different from the way judo or karate do things. The foot pivot you're talking about teaches you an exaggerated version of the body mechanics necessary to throw the strike effectively. As you get better at applying those mechanics, the motion gets smaller and smaller. Along the same lines, movements become constricted under stress, so in competition, they get even smaller. If you started off with the small motion, it would be more difficult for you to develop the mechanics necessary to be effective, and under stress, you wouldn't do enough and would be left with a weak strike. |
Great answer.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't train in boxing, but I have actually discussed this with some people who do, including a couple boxing coaches, and it's not so different from the way judo or karate do things. The foot pivot you're talking about teaches you an exaggerated version of the body mechanics necessary to throw the strike effectively. As you get better at applying those mechanics, the motion gets smaller and smaller. Along the same lines, movements become constricted under stress, so in competition, they get even smaller. If you started off with the small motion, it would be more difficult for you to develop the mechanics necessary to be effective, and under stress, you wouldn't do enough and would be left with a weak strike. |
Great answer. |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I don't train in boxing, but I have actually discussed this with some people who do, including a couple boxing coaches, and it's not so different from the way judo or karate do things. The foot pivot you're talking about teaches you an exaggerated version of the body mechanics necessary to throw the strike effectively. As you get better at applying those mechanics, the motion gets smaller and smaller. Along the same lines, movements become constricted under stress, so in competition, they get even smaller. If you started off with the small motion, it would be more difficult for you to develop the mechanics necessary to be effective, and under stress, you wouldn't do enough and would be left with a weak strike. |
This is really a great response here. I get a similar question about the forms I do. They incorporate a great deal of him. They teach you to use your hip, but in application you may not see hip because it's exaggerated to train but as you get more seasoned the movements become smaller.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Why dont pro boxers EVER twist the foot? |
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| SpeedKills wrote: |
In basic boxing you are taught to twist the foot like putting out a cigarette.
But after watching all the heavy punchers and boxing greats, I have observed that NONE of them do this. Not one time did I see the foot pivot. What I do see instead is a small pushing off the ground alot, and the legs and feet staying in place as the hips rotate violently.
Why do they even teach the foot twist if no good boxer uses it?
Also what method are all the pros using if it isnt the foot twist hows it done? It appears they dont use any leg drive at all, its just a little push from the leg and all hips, while the feet and legs stay mostly still and the hips move.
Heres one of the hardest punchers of all time. Look no foot twist no leg drive its all hips, and a tiny push off the ground. |
Bear with me- been away for a while.....
So it works like this- the power from your punches is generated from pushing off the ground. Rotating your foot ensures that you rotate your hips.... but this is all offense we're talking about...
Problem here is that boxers are, well- fighting someone that's hitting them back! That might be an obvious "duh" moment but a few things to consider when fighting a live opponent:
-you don't know which strikes will land and which ones wont
-you don't know which punches your opponent may decide to throw, nor how many
-you don't know how hard your opponent will be hitting back.
So with these three things in mind, lets clarify....
Every fight has (or should have) their weight favoring the balls of their feet. This allows for mobility, speed- what you described. The problem is that with very little surface area on that part of your feet, its going to be difficult to take a hard shot and said shot stands a greater chance of knocking you off balance. It really matters not whether a punch "hurts" you or not- if it simply takes your balance that's enough to temporarily halt you as a threat, since youre too off balance (albeit for a second) to return anything with any promise (power).
So now theres a little trade off between sinking low to prep for a hit (at the risk of mobility) or staying a little higher for greater mobility (as the expense of less of a base....). Fighters trade one for the other often enough. At the top tiers, fighters understand they can engage their quads to get really low while also staying on the balls of their feet to get the best of both worlds.
Lastly, we have the issue of whether or not your punch will land, be blocked, parried, or outright dodged. What this means is that said boxer isn't putting 100% into an individual punch (thing some bum throwing a haymaker) because if it misses hes not off balance, vulnerable, and unable to attack. Usually you'll see fighters commit to these types of shots when they have an opponent on the ropes where they know their shot will connect (blocked or not) but one has to be more cautious in the middle of the ring....
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:05 am Post subject: |
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To twist the foot when punching with full power takes and uses alot of energy; maybe that energy could be better spent earning points.
Also if it misses, it is very obvious and the fighter can become quickly off balanced (by pivoting from the front foot) and also makes the fighter seem vulnerable to counter attacks.
Landing a heavy twisting punch on another conditioned fighter isn't as effective as it is on a novice.
Pivoting on the ball of the foot is used more effectively to finish off the opponent (close in) with obvious punishing low twisting full power blows. |
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on the post.
