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guird
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:43 am    Post subject: Why I may drop karate Reply with quote

I may choose to stop training karate, as I'm having a lot of trouble making it work together with kickboxing. my kickboxing seems to be holding me back from progressing in karate, and my karate seems to be holding me back in kickboxing. In any case, each one is taking up time that could be used to train the other, and karate has a lot of travel time involved while the rest have very little.

If I were to stop with karate it would save a lot of time, and open up slots in my schedule for additional boxing and kickboxing.

A few of the reasons they conflict:
in karate I am always told to impact my roundhouse with the top of my foot, while in kickboxing I kick with the shin, and I know from kicking the heavy bag that using the top of the foot hurts my ankle joint.

The way I move in kickboxing which involves shifting my weight from foot to foot to manage distance and put my weight behind my punches, lifting my heel as I do so to facilitate the pivoting. This is wholly different from the way we move in karate, and being used to moving this way results in poor technique in karate.

When I've done a lot of kickboxing, I tend to nearly throw hooks in karate sparring. I catch myself on time, but it's still an annoyance.

Hikite seems to be conflicting with the reflex to keep my hands up.

I'm told to block mawashi geri with one arm in karate while moving off at an angle. I often fail to move off at an angle on time, so I prefer to use both arms to block. Using only one arm isn't so bad in point sparring, but if I were to do it in kick boxing I'd be hit.

Also, since I need to split my time over so many different arts, my progression in them is extremely slow.

On the other hand, I do enjoy karate and I get along very well with the others in my dojo.

thoughts?
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kensei
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Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Location: Canada
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a tough one. My thoughts are.....

Kick boxing is a sport for young guys and you pretty much have a three to four year shelf life before you can not compete at the level you are at, statistically you get hurt more and you end up on the shelf alot. When you get older you will be damaged a lot from kick boxing and you could get some pretty bad brain injuries.

While you are young however Kick boxing is a bit more fun, you get into great shape and if you are competitive you can not find a better outlet for that in striking. Its a great way to train for other sports like MMA and your cardio should be fantastic from doing the sport.


Karate is not as much fun as Kick boxing for young people, its regemented and it has some strange rules that dont make much sense till you are older. its still fairly hard no the joints and you probably will be hurt a bit while you are training. The impact on the body is less than Kick boxing but it is still their. You often have to off set the lack of real conditioning in some classes by jogging or doing weights, which takes up more time.

On the upside you can do Karate till you are old man and you can go at your own pace, the amount of learning is huge and you never end learning, technically you take a long time to become proficient but you do end up with a higher level of technical ability will be much better than kick boxing, the strategy also will help pay off when you learn more about how to do things and why.


My suggestion is to figure out what you really want out of training and go from their. Finding your goals and what your end game is will actually help you alot.

You seem like you have alot on your plate as it is. I tend to think one striking and one grappling art is ENOUGH anything past that is going to serve to confuse and hurt your training. My preference would be BJJ and Karate because you can do both for a long time, kick boxing only if you are young and look forwards to competition.
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jaypo
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520

Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of know what you're talking about on a different scale. The system I train in is more of a self defense system based on traditional martial arts. We learn the traditional techniques, but we focus a lot on the self defense applications. I also do a lot of research (reading, videos, outside "unofficial" training) of other techniques. So I prepare myself for real situations thru my training. When I spar, it's for points, so I can't apply my knowledge the same way I would in a real situation. Like you're saying that hikite interferes with keeping your hands up and blocking with 1 arm vs 2, I tend to get "scored on" a lot more because I don't mind getting hit with a glancing blow if it allows me to set up a good shot on my opponent. I also like to block front kicks with x blocks downward, but it leaves openings that can be scored on. In reality, I'd use the x block to grab the leg and probably take the opponent down. But in sport karate, it's not allowed. I also block very hard, so although my block may leave an opening, I'm pretty sure their technique will have a lesser effect, because I've actually broken 2 feet with blocks!

Case and point- last night, some kyu level students were testing. One lady who is reallllllly set on obtaining her black belt was testing for orange (8th kyu). Her final task was to spar with each of the black belts for 1 minute each, and we could only evade or block. Then, she had to spar each of us and score. Well, by this stage in the test, she decided that she was going all out and she was going to take that rank no matter what. Basically, the black belts had to survive the onslaught as long as we could until she scored a point. When it came to me, the way she finally scored was that I was backpedalling away from her onslaught and got caught trying to avoid the wall, and it caused me to lose my focus. She threw a kick as I was trying to move away from the wall, and although it hit my arm, it was on the reverse side of the judge, and he called it a score. I fell because my feet got tangled up. The reality of it is that I could have ended the whole session within the first 10 seconds. She just charged in like a bull, and if I applied my training, I could have caught her with about 100 different things. If it were a real situation, I could have absorbed any of the techniques to deliver a stronger one. However, since it was a sport karate type situation (that I wasn't allowed to score with), it dissallowed my techniques.

So to me, having to spar using "sport rules" is sort of contrary to what I'm training for. I understand why Master Funakoshi was against sport karate now!
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guird
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
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Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kensei wrote:
This is a tough one. My thoughts are.....

Kick boxing is a sport for young guys and you pretty much have a three to four year shelf life before you can not compete at the level you are at, statistically you get hurt more and you end up on the shelf alot. When you get older you will be damaged a lot from kick boxing and you could get some pretty bad brain injuries.

While you are young however Kick boxing is a bit more fun, you get into great shape and if you are competitive you can not find a better outlet for that in striking. Its a great way to train for other sports like MMA and your cardio should be fantastic from doing the sport.


Karate is not as much fun as Kick boxing for young people, its regemented and it has some strange rules that dont make much sense till you are older. its still fairly hard no the joints and you probably will be hurt a bit while you are training. The impact on the body is less than Kick boxing but it is still their. You often have to off set the lack of real conditioning in some classes by jogging or doing weights, which takes up more time.

On the upside you can do Karate till you are old man and you can go at your own pace, the amount of learning is huge and you never end learning, technically you take a long time to become proficient but you do end up with a higher level of technical ability will be much better than kick boxing, the strategy also will help pay off when you learn more about how to do things and why.


My suggestion is to figure out what you really want out of training and go from their. Finding your goals and what your end game is will actually help you alot.

You seem like you have alot on your plate as it is. I tend to think one striking and one grappling art is ENOUGH anything past that is going to serve to confuse and hurt your training. My preference would be BJJ and Karate because you can do both for a long time, kick boxing only if you are young and look forwards to competition.


I enjoy the feeling of progressing, feeling like I'm becoming a better fighter. I don't intend to compete in kickboxing due to the high injury rate, and I don't intend to compete in karate because the ruleset frustrates me to no end. I would like to compete in grappling, even if it's just on a very minor level. My gym hosts occasional, small-scale no-gi tournaments, of which I've entered one. I do like striking ,and would like to continue training it.

Most of the classes for kickboxing have sparring around medium contact. I take the occasional hard hit, but I haven't seen anyone get knocked out or get seriously injured. Sparring only gets harder in the advanced classes where they do prepare for competition.
There are a number of somewhat older practioners at my dojo who used to do kyokushin or kickboxing but stopped because they were getting old. I'm still pretty young, so I could always kickbox for a time and switch back to karate later. Or not, depending on whether or not I feel like it at that time. Maybe just agree to spar light, maybe drop striking altogether.
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guird
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
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Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaypo wrote:
I kind of know what you're talking about on a different scale. The system I train in is more of a self defense system based on traditional martial arts. We learn the traditional techniques, but we focus a lot on the self defense applications. I also do a lot of research (reading, videos, outside "unofficial" training) of other techniques. So I prepare myself for real situations thru my training. When I spar, it's for points, so I can't apply my knowledge the same way I would in a real situation. Like you're saying that hikite interferes with keeping your hands up and blocking with 1 arm vs 2, I tend to get "scored on" a lot more because I don't mind getting hit with a glancing blow if it allows me to set up a good shot on my opponent. I also like to block front kicks with x blocks downward, but it leaves openings that can be scored on. In reality, I'd use the x block to grab the leg and probably take the opponent down. But in sport karate, it's not allowed. I also block very hard, so although my block may leave an opening, I'm pretty sure their technique will have a lesser effect, because I've actually broken 2 feet with blocks!

Case and point- last night, some kyu level students were testing. One lady who is reallllllly set on obtaining her black belt was testing for orange (8th kyu). Her final task was to spar with each of the black belts for 1 minute each, and we could only evade or block. Then, she had to spar each of us and score. Well, by this stage in the test, she decided that she was going all out and she was going to take that rank no matter what. Basically, the black belts had to survive the onslaught as long as we could until she scored a point. When it came to me, the way she finally scored was that I was backpedalling away from her onslaught and got caught trying to avoid the wall, and it caused me to lose my focus. She threw a kick as I was trying to move away from the wall, and although it hit my arm, it was on the reverse side of the judge, and he called it a score. I fell because my feet got tangled up. The reality of it is that I could have ended the whole session within the first 10 seconds. She just charged in like a bull, and if I applied my training, I could have caught her with about 100 different things. If it were a real situation, I could have absorbed any of the techniques to deliver a stronger one. However, since it was a sport karate type situation (that I wasn't allowed to score with), it dissallowed my techniques.

So to me, having to spar using "sport rules" is sort of contrary to what I'm training for. I understand why Master Funakoshi was against sport karate now!

Which rules do you spar by? WKF does allow throws and takedowns nowadays, though since my dojo has a hard floor we don't (a shame, since I'd very much like to learn more about throwing). How do you spar in the more SD-oriented classes?
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jaypo
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's the ISKF rules we go by, but we also train on hardwood, so we don't do throws and takedowns while sparring.

In SD situations, we don't free spar. It's usually done as 1 step or very controlled kumite. For kumite for tests, it's free sparring.
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not surprised that you're having a hard time--kickboxing and karate are similar enough to cause a lot of difficulties, particularly if you haven't been training in one for quite a while before starting the other. To be honest, though, you'll have to decide for yourself which one you want to do. From the way you've written your post, it sounds like you've already decided that you prefer kickboxing to karate. If that's the case, then you should drop karate and continue with your kickboxing.
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tamaro
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Joined: 22 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: karate and kickboxing cross training is not a good idea Reply with quote

I've practiced kickboxing and later started shotokan karate.

My opinion is that, unless you're practicing Kyokushin Karate, Kickboxing is incompatible with most Karate styles.

Incompatible because the correct way of doing something in one place, is completely incorrect in the other. You are attempting to perfect two conflicting ways of achieve the same result. You're mind will simply get too confused to achieve a good performance in any of the two.
So, I would recommend dropping one of them and focus just on one.

Now, which one to choose...

First you mentioned you were taught to kick with the upper part of the foot in karate. A common misconception in karate is that mawashi geri hits with the upper part of the foot.
Kicking with the upper part of the foot is only advisable in sport karate so that the sport is safer and the increased range of the kick allows you to score more easily.
However, the correct way of performing mawashi geri is actually to hit with the ball of the foot, which is actually more devastating than striking with the shin. It's harder to train though and unless you develop good flexibility in your feet, you'll get hurt attempting to kick correctly.

Secondly you should remember that Karate is much more complete than kickboxing. You'll learn many more techniques, develop better coordination and become more adaptable to different fighting situations.

Kickboxing is meant to be a sport and focus on specific combat rules. it's simpler and one can expect to achieve an advanced level in 3 years. In Karate however, you achieve an advanced level in 5 to 6 years of good training because you have to train more techniques and tactics.

So, if you're young, Kickboxing is good. But, unlike Karate, kickboxing is not meant to be a life long venture because it focus on sport competition aspect only, while karate can be sport competition, self-defense or simply a way of life.

In the end, it's up you to pick the one you enjoy.

Myself, I would pick Karate, no doubt
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DWx
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Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I may drop karate Reply with quote

guird wrote:
I may choose to stop training karate, as I'm having a lot of trouble making it work together with kickboxing. my kickboxing seems to be holding me back from progressing in karate, and my karate seems to be holding me back in kickboxing. In any case, each one is taking up time that could be used to train the other, and karate has a lot of travel time involved while the rest have very little.

If I were to stop with karate it would save a lot of time, and open up slots in my schedule for additional boxing and kickboxing.

A few of the reasons they conflict:
in karate I am always told to impact my roundhouse with the top of my foot, while in kickboxing I kick with the shin, and I know from kicking the heavy bag that using the top of the foot hurts my ankle joint.

The way I move in kickboxing which involves shifting my weight from foot to foot to manage distance and put my weight behind my punches, lifting my heel as I do so to facilitate the pivoting. This is wholly different from the way we move in karate, and being used to moving this way results in poor technique in karate.

When I've done a lot of kickboxing, I tend to nearly throw hooks in karate sparring. I catch myself on time, but it's still an annoyance.

Hikite seems to be conflicting with the reflex to keep my hands up.

I'm told to block mawashi geri with one arm in karate while moving off at an angle. I often fail to move off at an angle on time, so I prefer to use both arms to block. Using only one arm isn't so bad in point sparring, but if I were to do it in kick boxing I'd be hit.

Also, since I need to split my time over so many different arts, my progression in them is extremely slow.

On the other hand, I do enjoy karate and I get along very well with the others in my dojo.

thoughts?

I hate to say it but I actually think something like ITF TKD would be a nice middle ground. The kickboxing sparring elements align such as pivoting on the ball and the way you'd block and to extent the kata and traditional elements are also present.

That said, if you really do feel like it's causing a problem, go with what enjoy more. Maybe this means training exclusively in boxing /kickboxing and perhaps picking up Karate at a later date.
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chrissyp
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: Why I may drop karate Reply with quote

guird wrote:
I may choose to stop training karate, as I'm having a lot of trouble making it work together with kickboxing. my kickboxing seems to be holding me back from progressing in karate, and my karate seems to be holding me back in kickboxing. In any case, each one is taking up time that could be used to train the other, and karate has a lot of travel time involved while the rest have very little.

If I were to stop with karate it would save a lot of time, and open up slots in my schedule for additional boxing and kickboxing.

A few of the reasons they conflict:
in karate I am always told to impact my roundhouse with the top of my foot, while in kickboxing I kick with the shin, and I know from kicking the heavy bag that using the top of the foot hurts my ankle joint.

The way I move in kickboxing which involves shifting my weight from foot to foot to manage distance and put my weight behind my punches, lifting my heel as I do so to facilitate the pivoting. This is wholly different from the way we move in karate, and being used to moving this way results in poor technique in karate.

When I've done a lot of kickboxing, I tend to nearly throw hooks in karate sparring. I catch myself on time, but it's still an annoyance.

Hikite seems to be conflicting with the reflex to keep my hands up.

I'm told to block mawashi geri with one arm in karate while moving off at an angle. I often fail to move off at an angle on time, so I prefer to use both arms to block. Using only one arm isn't so bad in point sparring, but if I were to do it in kick boxing I'd be hit.

Also, since I need to split my time over so many different arts, my progression in them is extremely slow.

On the other hand, I do enjoy karate and I get along very well with the others in my dojo.

thoughts?


I've had the same issue, I started of doing Thai boxing, and then picked up shotokan. My biggest issue at first was trying to fuse too much, too soon, while not having a full understanding of karate techniques.

Some techniques you'll find work well in kickboxing, some not so much, but would also instead work in MMA (if that sorta thing interest you)

I personally feel you can get a lot out of karate, but just keep in mind not everything is going to translate into each other, and to keep and open mind...and personally, if you enjoy it, i'd stick with it for kicks and giggles.

How long have you been doing karate? If you're really passionate about the kickboxing, then maybe you might want to put Karate to the side to focus on that, but ultimately it comes from what you want to get out of it.
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