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KarateNewbie
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Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:36 am    Post subject: Why is kake wake uke in Nijushiho different?? Reply with quote

Normally the leading hand mirrors the leading leg in this technique but in Nijushiho its the opposite- there has to be a reason for it. Does anyone know?
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Zaine
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Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately the answer for this is probably not as interesting as the discussion. The answer in a lot of these cases are "because it felt better" or "because that's the way we wanted to do it." Maybe it's that way so that the kata can end in a certain space on the floor. Maybe it's that way because when the kata was created the kakewake uke wasn't as standardized in it's usage. Maybe your dojo prefers to do the technique a certain way but the preference doesn't exist universally. It could be a number of reasons. Given, I'm not as familiar with Shotokan pedagogy, but my educated guess is that there's not real reason.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine's post is solid!! Why is anything ever done or not done in any technique in any style and/or any dojo, especially when Kata is concerned?

Perhaps, to understand further why Kake Wake Uke in Nijushiho might be different, one might ask what's happening before, during, and after Kake Wake Uke as it's being executed in Nijushiho. In specific, concerning to posture, stance, and space management. The overall technique depends on every element, and not just the technique of itself.

Before one can go away from, it had to have been a before. This is what we understand as the set-up. Shindokan's core depends on set-ups; one technique compliments another technique. To move to just move isn't effective, therefore, I had to be at point 'A' before I moved to point 'B', before I reached finally point 'C', each point had to be effective.

Before the Kake Wake Uke, look at the stance and the posture and the space management carefully, point 'A'. Then do the same for that pacific technique, Kake Wake Uke; what's being done...how's the entire body moved...how's specific body movements have occurred or about to occur, point 'B'. Then carefully look at what's just taken place once the body has moved to point 'C'

Perhaps, the reason might be that this particular technique is being used as a wrist release at that very movement. Perhaps, not. For said wrist release there must be a point 'A' to 'B', then to 'C' for the overall effectiveness. Why are any body part ever where they are at that very point?

Whatever's the reason(s) for the differences might be, one has to discover through discovery, and that requires to carefully studying that Kata's exploded view and nomenclature. We have to remember Bunkai is not an application of Kata but a way of studying its parts. Applications are actually Oyo. Everything found in Kata has a reason, no matter if we agree or not to that reason(s).

Imho!!



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KarateNewbie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys 👍
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tatsujin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KarateNewbie wrote:
Normally the leading hand mirrors the leading leg in this technique but in Nijushiho its the opposite- there has to be a reason for it. Does anyone know?


This is one of those instances that the written word is difficult to use...

Just by way of noting, my yondan in Shotokan (many, many moons ago) comes from the line starting with Asai Tetsuhiko Sensei (who had trained with both Funakoshi Gichin and Nakayama Masatoshi) and was, at one time, the Technical Director of the JKA. This line, my line, is directly from Kenneth Funakoshi and the Karate Association of Hawaii. All of the differing versions of Shotokan out there nowadays can teach things differently.

First off, would I be correct in that you are taught (as an oyo or combative application of this move) that you have both of your hands/arms inside of your opponents...in a defense/counter to a grab or choke? And then probably follow with something like a mae geri or "front kick"? This is very common. For a number of reasons this usually won't work, but that is a different conversation.

Asai Sensei taught that this move was done more like a flinch response or startle reflex. So, for the sake of simplicity, let's just say a quick responsive move. Use the following diagram to help understand what I will attempt to communicate.



So, for the moment, let's assume that we are working on a grappling to a lock or takedown AND that the attacker is coming in with some sort of advancing two handed attack...push, grab, whatever. You do the technique in a reflexive manner, attacking the incoming arms from the outside in. If you, in this case, angle back and to the right, you left foot is in quadrant II and your right foot is in quadrant IV. So, from this position, quadrants I and III are where the holes are. Tracking so far? The "holes" (meaning empty spaces on this quadrant image) are I and III, right? So, that is where you want to take the attacker to. Quadrant I is going to be the fastest and easiest to get to. With the left foot forward (in your question) you are going to have the right hand forward, correct? Hopefully so or I am completely missing the question being posed.

From what I have described above, see how you can transition into the next move of the kata. It does not have to fit and won't always fit, but just see. If not, look at how you can...your hips are now going to need (in this case) to turn to the right in a snap or twist motion (remember to turn the shoulders WITH the hips). The right hand (that was forward with the left foot) makes a drawing back or hikite (引き手) type of movement. This is literally drawing the attacker into that "empty" quadrant I. What is the left hand doing? Depends on "what you have got" at the moment. Many times you can execute a tsuki (突き - thrust - often incorrect translated as a punch) type of motion (with or without their hand or arm in your grasp) and effect an attack to the elbow (or the shoulder if you "know what you are doing").

Play with that and see if it does anything for you at all. Of course, you can reverse that such that your right leg is in quadrant I and your left leg in quadrant III and it works much the same way. And, you can get into either of those positions by moving (shifting) either forwards or backwards.

Or, it could be that I misunderstood the question and just gave you a whole bunch of rambling gobbley-gook that applies to nothing! LOL!

As to the original intent of the creator of the kata, the simple answer is that we will never really know. Most folks way smarter than me say that the kata comes from the Okinawan kata Niseishi through Aragaki Seisho. We know that Aragaki went to China and he studied martial arts there. The only real reference we have to a Chinese teacher is Wai Xinxian. Other smart folks indicate that it (the kata) originated from Lohanquan (羅漢拳 - Monk Fist Boxing). Regardless, it was changed as it was taught in Okinawa. It was learned by several folks who later taught it in Japan where it was changed again. With a lack of written history, the "original intent" is lost.

OK, ramble mode over....hope that is of some help.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tatsujin wrote:



So, for the moment, let's assume that we are working on a grappling to a lock or takedown AND that the attacker is coming in with some sort of advancing two handed attack...push, grab, whatever. You do the technique in a reflexive manner, attacking the incoming arms from the outside in. If you, in this case, angle back and to the right, you left foot is in quadrant II and your right foot is in quadrant IV. So, from this position, quadrants I and III are where the holes are. Tracking so far? The "holes" (meaning empty spaces on this quadrant image) are I and III, right? So, that is where you want to take the attacker to. Quadrant I is going to be the fastest and easiest to get to. With the left foot forward (in your question) you are going to have the right hand forward, correct? Hopefully so or I am completely missing the question being posed.

This is what I was referring to as Space Management, and because we and our opponent moves, so does the spaces that we manage, and those spaces constantly change from moment to moment.

I did a KF Article speaking about Space Management many years back...

https://www.karateforums.com/close-range-space-management-vt46269.html?highlight=space+management

Your entire post, tatsujin, is solid across the board. You don't ramble; very informative posts, thank you for them.



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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I can't offer up the expertise offered in the other responses, I would ask what the others have referred to; are you practicing any applications with the technique? If so, that should reveal some answers. If not, then it can be tough to see what something is done the way it is done.
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tatsujin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:

This is what I was referring to as Space Management, and because we and our opponent moves, so does the spaces that we manage, and those spaces constantly change from moment to moment.

I did a KF Article speaking about Space Management many years back...

https://www.karateforums.com/close-range-space-management-vt46269.html?highlight=space+management

Your entire post, tatsujin, is solid across the board. You don't ramble; very informative posts, thank you for them.





Thanks for the kinds words, it is much appreciated. But I still ramble at times! LOL!

I will definitely go have a look at your article! Still being a relative newbie here, I was not aware there use to be a section for that...nor am I privy to why it went away. But, it seems like it would be nice to have that. Anyway...

On topic...

I actually kind of cheated in my explanation using the quadrants. I did so just to make it the easiest way to explain a more difficult concept in the written word here.

The quadrant concept I was attempting to convey in the earlier post actually works best when applied to locks and grappling. So, the quadrants applies to a means by which you can get the most "bang for you buck" in such a situation. Additionally, when using this line of thought, there are four (4) more quadrants on the back of the body.

When you are getting more into what I think you may be referring to as "space management", then we have a different set of concepts that would best be identified through the following symbol:



You have probably seen a symbol like this before in the martial arts or heard it discussed in various different styles. The easiest way to describe it is Happo no Kuzushi (八方の崩し), meaning 8 directions (or all directions) means of unbalancing an opponent. But, in the art that I teach, that isn't really the way that we look at it. Kuzushi (崩し) literally means to pull down, level out, demolish or destroy. So, within that definition you could have unbalancing. But, you could have much, much more as well. Within that, you also have the shiho (四方) or four directions. Where we (the art that I teach) takes a bit of a different turn than most that use this concept is in how it relates to the eight ( gates of primarily] Taijiquan (八門 - bamen. Those gates (or powers are peng (ward off - 掤), lu (roll back - 履), ji (press - 擠), an (push - 按), cai (pull down 採), lie (split - 列), zhou (elbow - 肘) and kao (shoulder - 靠). Those gates can be seen expressed in the bagua or 8 triagrams image:



NOTE: There is some additional information listed in the diagram as well that would not necessarily apply to this conversation...

It you apply the first image of the 8 lines or directions over top of the bagua symbol, you'll see everything laid out nicely. And, the four most important of them (peng, lu, an and ji) correspond to the shiho (四方) or four directions.

If you saw the images of the school patch that I was working on, you'll see the happo and shiho directly incorporated into the design.

Hopefully this all made sense and maybe gave you something to think about or consider. I am off to read your article and I am sure that I will have questions for you after I do.

Thanks again!
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KarateNewbie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies, only seeing the last couple of posts now. Thank you so much for your insights and for taking so much trouble in replying with detail. You've all given me a lot to think about.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

because foot positioning is largely irrelevant to what the hands are doing.
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