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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always watch out for the senior people. They are too old to run and too young to die. You make me think of one of my favorite quotes.
Beware of an old man in a young man's profession.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
If you are a superior fighter then slapping the opponent to submission isn't necessary.

Just tell the opponent that "Continuing isn't an option for you, so please tap out"

Constraining the opponent is sufficient enough with Chinese styles; without adding any insult to injury.

Slapping my martial art brother or sister isn't gaining any respect from the opponent neither is it showing any type of consideration.

Going beyond what is necessary when the bout has already been won is lacking benevolence and crosses the line in to cruelty and egotistical sadism.

Winning a bout is the time to be able to recruit that person in to your realm of expertise and not the time for punishment and unnecessary humiliation.

Who wants to join a group that prefers punishment over enlightenment?

Troops that were captured and tortured in the last century during war didn't hate their captors, they did however have pity for them due to the lack of humility and consideration for fellow humans.

Kindness is always surprising no matter the circumstances.


All of this is explained beforehand. This isn't sparring its a fight. You need to understand the people that are asking for these matches. These are the guys that are all "you cant take me to the ground" and "that stuff doesn't work on me" so we decide to have a fight.

Now here are the rules for a challenge match- the challenger can do whatever he wants, we merely ask that you don't bite for the sake of diseases. You CAN bite, but it'll quickly become the last time you're able to do that. Now the rules for the jiu jitsu fighter- hes not allowed to strike with a closed fist but hes going to take you down. After he does hes going to get to the mount. Hes not going to punch you with a fist, but rather hes going to slap you to demonstrate just how much control he has over you. Then he'll choke you.

You'll want to "try again" (they always do...) but they also fail to realize that if this were an actual fight you would not have that option. So what you're asking me to do is to not only not hurt you, but also not embarrass you at the same time. Meanwhile there is no doubt that you're trying your hardest to injure and cripple me the moment you get a chance. The fact that I'm slapping you instead of punching you is about as merciful and compassionate as one can get. The first match is usually a few slaps to get you to turn your back. The second match the slaps are much harder and more frequent. If you insist on a third match, there are no more slaps (or submissions for that matter) and its punches and elbows at this point.

A few things to consider- this is still much more humane than any striking style is going to be (considering they'll hit you to the point of unconsciousness with blunt force trauma.)

No other martial art ever allowed someone to walk into their school, challenge them, and have the potential to walk out unharmed. This is a FIGHT and I'm able to have enough control so as to only hurt your ego and not your body. What other martial art can offer that?

When looking at these videos, you're often not seeing what led up to the match and the banter of the challenger.

You speak of Chinese styles and other martial arts, so allow me to call you out on that one- show me a video of a challenge match with a style other than jiu jitsu or modern day mma- a full contact no holds barred match at that and show me the "humanity" demonstrated by the challenged. Lets assume you can find a match, you'll notice that the challenger will be beaten so profusely that an immediate rematch is not possible. You're going to leave the jiu jitsu school with injuries only to your ego (unless you persist).

In regards to martial arts and the "code of conduct" you speak of you also need to understand that not everyone is interested in that. I don't train martial arts to become a better person or improve my spirituality, I train because I like to fight. Martial arts are supposed to teach people how to fight. I take great offense to people who claim to be able to do it while simultaneously being unable to do it.

The whole situation could have easily been avoided if the challenger merely took a couple of classes....
A couple of (What) BJJ classes?

Stand up vs ground arguments are similar to, my dad is tougher than your dad confrontations, that hapen between children; for me they are pointless and very much an indication of immaturity and lack of real life experiences and substance.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
If you are a superior fighter then slapping the opponent to submission isn't necessary.

Just tell the opponent that "Continuing isn't an option for you, so please tap out"

Constraining the opponent is sufficient enough with Chinese styles; without adding any insult to injury.

Slapping my martial art brother or sister isn't gaining any respect from the opponent neither is it showing any type of consideration.

Going beyond what is necessary when the bout has already been won is lacking benevolence and crosses the line in to cruelty and egotistical sadism.

Winning a bout is the time to be able to recruit that person in to your realm of expertise and not the time for punishment and unnecessary humiliation.

Who wants to join a group that prefers punishment over enlightenment?

Troops that were captured and tortured in the last century during war didn't hate their captors, they did however have pity for them due to the lack of humility and consideration for fellow humans.

Kindness is always surprising no matter the circumstances.


All of this is explained beforehand. This isn't sparring its a fight. You need to understand the people that are asking for these matches. These are the guys that are all "you cant take me to the ground" and "that stuff doesn't work on me" so we decide to have a fight.

Now here are the rules for a challenge match- the challenger can do whatever he wants, we merely ask that you don't bite for the sake of diseases. You CAN bite, but it'll quickly become the last time you're able to do that. Now the rules for the jiu jitsu fighter- hes not allowed to strike with a closed fist but hes going to take you down. After he does hes going to get to the mount. Hes not going to punch you with a fist, but rather hes going to slap you to demonstrate just how much control he has over you. Then he'll choke you.

You'll want to "try again" (they always do...) but they also fail to realize that if this were an actual fight you would not have that option. So what you're asking me to do is to not only not hurt you, but also not embarrass you at the same time. Meanwhile there is no doubt that you're trying your hardest to injure and cripple me the moment you get a chance. The fact that I'm slapping you instead of punching you is about as merciful and compassionate as one can get. The first match is usually a few slaps to get you to turn your back. The second match the slaps are much harder and more frequent. If you insist on a third match, there are no more slaps (or submissions for that matter) and its punches and elbows at this point.

A few things to consider- this is still much more humane than any striking style is going to be (considering they'll hit you to the point of unconsciousness with blunt force trauma.)

No other martial art ever allowed someone to walk into their school, challenge them, and have the potential to walk out unharmed. This is a FIGHT and I'm able to have enough control so as to only hurt your ego and not your body. What other martial art can offer that?

When looking at these videos, you're often not seeing what led up to the match and the banter of the challenger.

You speak of Chinese styles and other martial arts, so allow me to call you out on that one- show me a video of a challenge match with a style other than jiu jitsu or modern day mma- a full contact no holds barred match at that and show me the "humanity" demonstrated by the challenged. Lets assume you can find a match, you'll notice that the challenger will be beaten so profusely that an immediate rematch is not possible. You're going to leave the jiu jitsu school with injuries only to your ego (unless you persist).

In regards to martial arts and the "code of conduct" you speak of you also need to understand that not everyone is interested in that. I don't train martial arts to become a better person or improve my spirituality, I train because I like to fight. Martial arts are supposed to teach people how to fight. I take great offense to people who claim to be able to do it while simultaneously being unable to do it.

The whole situation could have easily been avoided if the challenger merely took a couple of classes....
A couple of (What) BJJ classes?

Stand up vs ground arguments are similar to, my dad is tougher than your dad confrontations, that hapen between children; for me they are pointless and very much an indication of immaturity and lack of real life experiences and substance.


No, no its not because martial arts are about fighting. If someone claims to be able to do something they need to back it up. Theres no more "real life" experience than throwing down and fighting. All martial arts make a claim (to defend oneself) and this is a very practical and bold statement to make- theres nothing wrong with asking someone to prove what they're claiming. Of course, the other party doesn't need to fight when challenged but if one is going to make claims one needs to be prepared to back up what they say....
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14267
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why Slapping is allowed in Jujitsu?

Allowed?

As far as I'm concerned, I'd do it anyway if it wasn't allowed because it's an effective tool across the board. Yeah, I'd be kicked out of the school sooner or later, but to deny me a tool, that too, ain't cool.

Don't want to get slapped, then effectively defend against it; don't make excuses.



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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hes misinterpreting challenge matches as being typical training.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu you are very right on all your comments on why slapping is allowed in jujitsu.

Challenge matches that involve grapplers and stand up fighters usually favor those that can do body slams, choke holds and joint locks.

Ironically many stand up styles use takedown techniques but are not practiced or emphasized enough or never at all.

Perhaps this stand up shortfall is due to the uniforms that would not hold up to the wear and tear of grappling, as well as teaching choke holds to young children might upset the parents.

Many times martial arts try to compare apples with oranges, for many it is about fighting and others it is traditions, health and spirituality, or a leisure pastime.

If martial arts is viewed as a family, that are related to each other, then it is easy to forgive baby brothers or younger sisters for their naiveties; big brothers are always a very good thing to have around!
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