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immaterial
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Joined: 12 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Why train ball of the foot roundhouse for SD? Reply with quote

You normally wear shoes, and you can't put bend your toes in them, and you would break your toes if you kicked with them instead full force on a skull.

So why do we learn something which can't be applied?
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Wayofaswede
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Styles: Shukokai Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido (Aikikai), Judo, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:

https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ

We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick.
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immaterial
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayofaswede wrote:
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:

https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ

We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick.


He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull.
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Wayofaswede
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

immaterial wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:

https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ

We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick.


He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull.


Interesting, maybe that's one of the reasons Sensei seldom (never?) demonstrates mawashi. We seem to use it primarily for agility/precision/endurance/kote kitae drills.

None of the katas I've learned so far include any mawashi at all - come to think of it I don't believe I have seen any of the advanced katas include it either?

As I have understood it, the mawashi to the head is generally regarded as ineffective in a RL situation - as it takes too much time and leaves the practitioner too unbalanced/vulnerable to counter attacks?

Do correct me if I'm wrong - how techniques that we practice relates to RL application is an important (some would say essential) question
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immaterial
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayofaswede wrote:
immaterial wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:

https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ

We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick.


He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull.


Interesting, maybe that's one of the reasons Sensei seldom (never?) demonstrates mawashi. We seem to use it primarily for agility/precision/endurance/kote kitae drills.

None of the katas I've learned so far include any mawashi at all - come to think of it I don't believe I have seen any of the advanced katas include it either?

As I have understood it, the mawashi to the head is generally regarded as ineffective in a RL situation - as it takes too much time and leaves the practitioner too unbalanced/vulnerable to counter attacks?

Do correct me if I'm wrong - how techniques that we practice relates to RL application is an important (some would say essential) question


Mawashi geri was a later technique added and didn't make it into many karate katas of the old styles. shotokan does however have a mawashi ger on the floor in the katas, but no standing. you might be right that it wasn't intended to aim for the head, but if you have the option to kick the head, you should do that.
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immaterial
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For instance, what if you kick someone in the chest area and he just sucks it up or worse - grabs your leg and takes you down, where there is no theory in karate what to do.

at least if you connect to the head, he is going down.

People kick each others body regularly in fighting. It's not a finishing technique in general. The difference is however that they don't have leg grabs, or if they do, there is no ground fighting.
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JR 137
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not train it? Itís another option available to you if you can use it. Iím not a fan of it, but everythingís got its place.

We use the instep mostly. I prefer the lower shin. Which part I use (instep vs shin) depends on the target and how close I am. The head is higher typically, so Iíd never reach with my shin. Ribs and lower, Iím using my shin.

All that being said, Iím not throwing a roundhouse above my own waist in a SD situation. Iím not flexible enough and itís a pretty risky move for me. If I had the athleticism, timing and speed and power to make it a fight ender, Iíd use it when the opportunity presented itself.

If Iím being attacked my some oompah loompahs or little kids, then jodan mawashi geri time

Iíll kick an opponent in the head practically every time I truly need to in SD if his head is on or near the ground. Itís not a head kick Iím opposed to at all; itís reaching too far for it and leaving too good of an opening that Iím not going to do. Thereís better far les risk/high reward stuff.

But Iíd throw a roundhouse to the head before a nukite/spearhand. If I did the old-school hand conditioning that would be a different story.
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immaterial
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Iím not a fan of it, but everythingís got its place.
y.


Why are you not a fan of it?
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JR 137
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

immaterial wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
Iím not a fan of it, but everythingís got its place.
y.


Why are you not a fan of it?


Good question. You really got me thinking why I donít like it, and the honest answer is because Iím not good at it. Itís one of those things that you donít like what youíre not good at, so you avoid training it because you donít like it.

My feet are very flat. My toes arenít flexible. So the ball of my foot doesnít stick out very far when I do that kick and front kick. I think because of the angle the roundhouse comes it at, it would be pretty hard to use the ball of the foot with shoes on. A front kick, at least my front kick, rises upwards on contact, so wearing shoes doesnít hinder it much. My roundhouse is hindered by shoes. Iíve hit a bag with both kick while wearing shoes many times; roundhouse with the ball of the foot isnít a good kick for me, but front kick with the ball of my foot is perfectly fine.

Even if it was a good kick for me, Iíd still prefer the lower 1/3 of the shin. Itís a lot bigger surface area and therefore I donít need to be as precise. Itís like swinging a bat vs a hammer IMO. Sure the hammer will have more pressure, but the bat wonít miss as easily.

As for breaking your foot by using your instep to the head vs shin or ball of the foot, I donít think thatís a real world concern. Iíve seen countless full power instep to the head kicks in competition, and I havenít seen a broken foot. Iíd be willing to bet less people break their foot off of someoneís head than break their hand off of someoneís head. I say that percentage-wise because obviously less people kick the head than punch it. It would be an interesting scientific study.
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aurik
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Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always done mawashi geri with either the shin or instep. Of course, I would never try to kick to the head in a self-defense situation -- it's too slow and you run the risk of losing your balance if the ground isn't flat and level. Frankly, I think there are far too many good targets much lower, such as the outer thigh and the floating ribs/kidneys.
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