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immaterial
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 27
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm Post subject: Why train ball of the foot roundhouse for SD? |
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You normally wear shoes, and you can't put bend your toes in them, and you would break your toes if you kicked with them instead full force on a skull.
So why do we learn something which can't be applied? |
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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 221
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:21 am Post subject: |
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In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:
https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ
We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick.
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The path so far: 2 kyu Karate (Shito-ryu), 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
Not a day without a kata |
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immaterial
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Wayofaswede wrote: |
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:
https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ
We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick. |
He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull. |
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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 221
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| immaterial wrote: |
| Wayofaswede wrote: |
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:
https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ
We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick. |
He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull. |
Interesting, maybe that's one of the reasons Sensei seldom (never?) demonstrates mawashi. We seem to use it primarily for agility/precision/endurance/kote kitae drills.
None of the katas I've learned so far include any mawashi at all - come to think of it I don't believe I have seen any of the advanced katas include it either?
As I have understood it, the mawashi to the head is generally regarded as ineffective in a RL situation - as it takes too much time and leaves the practitioner too unbalanced/vulnerable to counter attacks?
Do correct me if I'm wrong - how techniques that we practice relates to RL application is an important (some would say essential) question 
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The path so far: 2 kyu Karate (Shito-ryu), 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
Not a day without a kata |
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immaterial
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Wayofaswede wrote: |
| immaterial wrote: |
| Wayofaswede wrote: |
In Shito-ryu, we do the roundhouse or Mawashi with the top side of the foot, something like this:
https://youtu.be/9JO-doRi_YQ
We use the ball of the foot when doing Mae geri, forward kick. |
He is using the instep in the clip you linked, and the problem with the instep is that you will break your foot smashing into a skull. |
Interesting, maybe that's one of the reasons Sensei seldom (never?) demonstrates mawashi. We seem to use it primarily for agility/precision/endurance/kote kitae drills.
None of the katas I've learned so far include any mawashi at all - come to think of it I don't believe I have seen any of the advanced katas include it either?
As I have understood it, the mawashi to the head is generally regarded as ineffective in a RL situation - as it takes too much time and leaves the practitioner too unbalanced/vulnerable to counter attacks?
Do correct me if I'm wrong - how techniques that we practice relates to RL application is an important (some would say essential) question |
Mawashi geri was a later technique added and didn't make it into many karate katas of the old styles. shotokan does however have a mawashi ger on the floor in the katas, but no standing. you might be right that it wasn't intended to aim for the head, but if you have the option to kick the head, you should do that. |
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immaterial
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:35 am Post subject: |
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For instance, what if you kick someone in the chest area and he just sucks it up or worse - grabs your leg and takes you down, where there is no theory in karate what to do.
at least if you connect to the head, he is going down.
People kick each others body regularly in fighting. It's not a finishing technique in general. The difference is however that they don't have leg grabs, or if they do, there is no ground fighting. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Why not train it? It’s another option available to you if you can use it. I’m not a fan of it, but everything’s got its place.
We use the instep mostly. I prefer the lower shin. Which part I use (instep vs shin) depends on the target and how close I am. The head is higher typically, so I’d never reach with my shin. Ribs and lower, I’m using my shin.
All that being said, I’m not throwing a roundhouse above my own waist in a SD situation. I’m not flexible enough and it’s a pretty risky move for me. If I had the athleticism, timing and speed and power to make it a fight ender, I’d use it when the opportunity presented itself.
If I’m being attacked my some oompah loompahs or little kids, then jodan mawashi geri time 
I’ll kick an opponent in the head practically every time I truly need to in SD if his head is on or near the ground. It’s not a head kick I’m opposed to at all; it’s reaching too far for it and leaving too good of an opening that I’m not going to do. There’s better far les risk/high reward stuff.
But I’d throw a roundhouse to the head before a nukite/spearhand. If I did the old-school hand conditioning that would be a different story. |
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immaterial
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2019
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m not a fan of it, but everything’s got its place.
y. |
Why are you not a fan of it? |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| immaterial wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m not a fan of it, but everything’s got its place.
y. |
Why are you not a fan of it? |
Good question. You really got me thinking why I don’t like it, and the honest answer is because I’m not good at it. It’s one of those things that you don’t like what you’re not good at, so you avoid training it because you don’t like it.
My feet are very flat. My toes aren’t flexible. So the ball of my foot doesn’t stick out very far when I do that kick and front kick. I think because of the angle the roundhouse comes it at, it would be pretty hard to use the ball of the foot with shoes on. A front kick, at least my front kick, rises upwards on contact, so wearing shoes doesn’t hinder it much. My roundhouse is hindered by shoes. I’ve hit a bag with both kick while wearing shoes many times; roundhouse with the ball of the foot isn’t a good kick for me, but front kick with the ball of my foot is perfectly fine.
Even if it was a good kick for me, I’d still prefer the lower 1/3 of the shin. It’s a lot bigger surface area and therefore I don’t need to be as precise. It’s like swinging a bat vs a hammer IMO. Sure the hammer will have more pressure, but the bat won’t miss as easily.
As for breaking your foot by using your instep to the head vs shin or ball of the foot, I don’t think that’s a real world concern. I’ve seen countless full power instep to the head kicks in competition, and I haven’t seen a broken foot. I’d be willing to bet less people break their foot off of someone’s head than break their hand off of someone’s head. I say that percentage-wise because obviously less people kick the head than punch it. It would be an interesting scientific study. |
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aurik
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 499
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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I've always done mawashi geri with either the shin or instep. Of course, I would never try to kick to the head in a self-defense situation -- it's too slow and you run the risk of losing your balance if the ground isn't flat and level. Frankly, I think there are far too many good targets much lower, such as the outer thigh and the floating ribs/kidneys.
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on the post.
