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mazzybear
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 650
Location: Scotland.
Styles: Wado Kai

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Quote:
Socrates said that he possessed no wisdom but was a pursuer of it.

He was at least intelligent enough to realize that his logic contained no wisdom.


This is not what Plato meant. What Plato writes in The Apology is that human wisdom is worth little when we consider the wisdom of the gods.

Furthermore, logic is not the absence of wisdom. Applying logic gives us a clear and defined path to our goal. The Chinese use logic as well. In Daoism, those in the School of Names were logicians.

Quote:
Many are very quick to talk about Chinese philosophy; I kindly like to point out that philosophy is Greek and not Chinese, wisdom however is oriental.


Again, I think it is incorrect to call philosophy exclusively Greek, and wisdom exclusively oriental. There are plenty of other branches and traditions of philosophy that aren't Greek, and Eastern philosophy has a rich and very ancient tradition.

Wisdom is universal, and in the end I think that anyone can seek wisdom, regardless of what are of philosophy they ascribe themselves to.

Quote:
The ancient Chinese were far more advanced than their European counterparts, while they wore silk and the rest were wearing fur.


I think this particular statement is a little unfair. Silkworms are native to China. Would European nations have created silk if they were native to Europe? That's unknowable. Since it is unknowable, it's not something that we can really debate about.

However, I will say that clothing depended heavily on the climate of the area. People that wore fur generally lived in frigid climates, whereas people in warmer climates moved to other, lighter materials when they could.

Quote:
Just look at the state of today's European politics for some insight, how is Greek logic compared to Chinese wisdom?

As the Chinese have offered to bail out Greece from its debts.


I think this is also an unfair statement. Multiple countries offered Greece aid. Was it wisdom that caused Greece's collapse? It's unlikely. Nor do I think philosophy played a hand in the event either.

Quote:
Why is it that the martial arts from (All) oriental Eastern cultures are of more interesting to Westerners than the Grecian West, such as the Spartans?


Source? Eastern martial arts are certainly more globally popular, but Greece is far from the dominate area for WMA. We are beginning to see a restoration in interest in WMA, and it's been very awesome to be a part of.

Quote:
Nothing has really changed, still Westerners steal from Chinese cultures (since the middle ages) rebottle it or rename it and call it something else.


While this is true, I do not see how this is different from what Eastern cultures steal from the West. Culture is a constantly evolving thing. Every culture takes what it likes from others, and adapts it to themselves.

Quote:
Gun powder was a Chinese invention used for celebrations till the West used it, to dominate other cultures with.


China used firearms before the West did. Furthermore, Middle Eastern countries were the first to use what we generally think of as a gun in the 14th century.

Quote:
Spaghetti isn't Italian, it is Chinese originally, that was discovered by Marco Polo.


I couldn't anything that agreed with this. The closest thing I found is that the Italian spaghetti noodle is likely a descendant of Asian noodles. Again, I think this goes back to my argument on cultures borrowing from others. The dish called spaghetti is solidly an Italian one.

Quote:
Crop rotations and agriculture is Chinese in origin, that were introduced to European farmers in the Middle Ages.


The earliest evidence of crop rotations we have are from around 6000BCE, and originated in the Middle East. So while that is still Asian in origin, it is not Chinese. It seems that the West knew about it long before the Middle Ages.

Agriculture can also be traced back to this time. Again, the West knew about agriculture long before the Middle Ages.

Quote:
Where would this forum and martial arts be if it was devoid of Chinese/oriental wisdom and only Greek logical/philosophical statements and opinions could be used?


I think we would be in the same spot. This is a great forum, and I think that logic plays a large part in the questions and answers that make up this community.

I think that it is important to remember that the goal of philosophy is wisdom, regardless of origin. Greek philosophy is big in the West because it is a part of Western culture. Chinese philosophy is big in the East because it is a part of Eastern culture.

I think that as MAist, we pursue wisdom through philosophy. I think that as humans we pursue wisdom through philosophy.



Excellent post!!



Mo.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2079


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazzybear wrote:
Zaine wrote:
Quote:
Socrates said that he possessed no wisdom but was a pursuer of it.

He was at least intelligent enough to realize that his logic contained no wisdom.


This is not what Plato meant. What Plato writes in The Apology is that human wisdom is worth little when we consider the wisdom of the gods.

Furthermore, logic is not the absence of wisdom. Applying logic gives us a clear and defined path to our goal. The Chinese use logic as well. In Daoism, those in the School of Names were logicians.

Quote:
Many are very quick to talk about Chinese philosophy; I kindly like to point out that philosophy is Greek and not Chinese, wisdom however is oriental.


Again, I think it is incorrect to call philosophy exclusively Greek, and wisdom exclusively oriental. There are plenty of other branches and traditions of philosophy that aren't Greek, and Eastern philosophy has a rich and very ancient tradition.

Wisdom is universal, and in the end I think that anyone can seek wisdom, regardless of what are of philosophy they ascribe themselves to.

Quote:
The ancient Chinese were far more advanced than their European counterparts, while they wore silk and the rest were wearing fur.


I think this particular statement is a little unfair. Silkworms are native to China. Would European nations have created silk if they were native to Europe? That's unknowable. Since it is unknowable, it's not something that we can really debate about.

However, I will say that clothing depended heavily on the climate of the area. People that wore fur generally lived in frigid climates, whereas people in warmer climates moved to other, lighter materials when they could.

Quote:
Just look at the state of today's European politics for some insight, how is Greek logic compared to Chinese wisdom?

As the Chinese have offered to bail out Greece from its debts.


I think this is also an unfair statement. Multiple countries offered Greece aid. Was it wisdom that caused Greece's collapse? It's unlikely. Nor do I think philosophy played a hand in the event either.

Quote:
Why is it that the martial arts from (All) oriental Eastern cultures are of more interesting to Westerners than the Grecian West, such as the Spartans?


Source? Eastern martial arts are certainly more globally popular, but Greece is far from the dominate area for WMA. We are beginning to see a restoration in interest in WMA, and it's been very awesome to be a part of.

Quote:
Nothing has really changed, still Westerners steal from Chinese cultures (since the middle ages) rebottle it or rename it and call it something else.


While this is true, I do not see how this is different from what Eastern cultures steal from the West. Culture is a constantly evolving thing. Every culture takes what it likes from others, and adapts it to themselves.

Quote:
Gun powder was a Chinese invention used for celebrations till the West used it, to dominate other cultures with.


China used firearms before the West did. Furthermore, Middle Eastern countries were the first to use what we generally think of as a gun in the 14th century.

Quote:
Spaghetti isn't Italian, it is Chinese originally, that was discovered by Marco Polo.


I couldn't anything that agreed with this. The closest thing I found is that the Italian spaghetti noodle is likely a descendant of Asian noodles. Again, I think this goes back to my argument on cultures borrowing from others. The dish called spaghetti is solidly an Italian one.

Quote:
Crop rotations and agriculture is Chinese in origin, that were introduced to European farmers in the Middle Ages.


The earliest evidence of crop rotations we have are from around 6000BCE, and originated in the Middle East. So while that is still Asian in origin, it is not Chinese. It seems that the West knew about it long before the Middle Ages.

Agriculture can also be traced back to this time. Again, the West knew about agriculture long before the Middle Ages.

Quote:
Where would this forum and martial arts be if it was devoid of Chinese/oriental wisdom and only Greek logical/philosophical statements and opinions could be used?


I think we would be in the same spot. This is a great forum, and I think that logic plays a large part in the questions and answers that make up this community.

I think that it is important to remember that the goal of philosophy is wisdom, regardless of origin. Greek philosophy is big in the West because it is a part of Western culture. Chinese philosophy is big in the East because it is a part of Eastern culture.

I think that as MAist, we pursue wisdom through philosophy. I think that as humans we pursue wisdom through philosophy.



Excellent post!!



Mo.
Bruce Lee sums it up in one statement "Don't think Feel"

Thinking is philosophical that can go on indefinitely, whereas using feelings (with emotional content) in the moment is a wiser choice of action.

Spartans would settle arguments by who could shout the loudest, is this logical or were they trying out the emotional content concept?

The fight choreograph in the (two Greek) movies "300" used JKD concepts, also in the movie "Troy" why?

Concerning history, the victors write it as they are the good guys, as His-story!

Depending on who is writing the historical "facts" they will change from one book to another.

One example, is America was discovered by Italians and they celebrate it that way, as Christopher Columbus was Italian but the Spanish have a different point of view and so does the Native American Indians.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27583
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the Spartans just yell at each other? Is that really how they settled arguments? Is there a source on that?

Also, 300 and Troy are not documentaries, they are movies, made for entertainment.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2079


PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Did the Spartans just yell at each other? Is that really how they settled arguments? Is there a source on that?

Also, 300 and Troy are not documentaries, they are movies, made for entertainment.


Here is something close to my ramblings but not exactly. I don't remember where I got my information on the Spartans; always had an interest in them since my late pre teens. Perhaps I learned about them in a book somewhere.

https://advocacy.ou.org/political-problems-torah-solutions-the-loudest-wins-of-sparta-johnson-and-rashi/

Point being with JKD concepts in the Greek movies, where else could the fight scene choreographers draw inspiration from?
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