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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Wisdom vs Philosophy Reply with quote

There is a difference between the two, are you aware of the differences?
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Wisdom vs Philosophy Reply with quote

As a MAist, to me...

Wisdom is experience!!

Philosophy is knowledge!!




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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
As a MAist, to me...

Wisdom is experience!!

Philosophy is knowledge!!



Philosophy is Greek and Wisdom is Oriental.

As martial artists two perspectives are beneficial to having a balanced view of situations.

While the Greeks used logic in the Orient they used luck management.

As martial artist we are using both logic and luck management.

We cannot guarantee ourselves to win every fight but we can all improve our chances of winning using logic and some luck management skills.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Philosophy is Greek and Wisdom is Oriental.

Lol!! I deserved that one!!




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Zaine
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Philosophy is Greek and Wisdom is Oriental.


I disagree. Wisdom is the application of knowledge, and I hesitate to say that it has much to do with luck. It certainly can help us hedge bets, and move away from pure luck in situations, but that's as far as I am willing to go.

Philosophy, on the other hand, is far from being just Greek. We can certainly thank the Ancient Greeks for popularizing it in the Western world, but philosophy itself exists within many culture and is not exclusive to Greece.

Philosophy is theory, in it's base form. The word philosophy means "lover of wisdom", and as such philosophers seek out wisdom in all forms. In the world of MA, this leads to our ambition to know more.

If you want to label these two things within the world of MA, one could say that philosophy is theory, and wisdom is application. However, that would do a disservice to both of these concepts. There is so much more that goes into these two things, and to define them solidly would be difficult.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, none of us really knows the difference...maybe!!



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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Philosophy is Greek and Wisdom is Oriental.


I disagree. Wisdom is the application of knowledge, and I hesitate to say that it has much to do with luck. It certainly can help us hedge bets, and move away from pure luck in situations, but that's as far as I am willing to go.

Philosophy, on the other hand, is far from being just Greek. We can certainly thank the Ancient Greeks for popularizing it in the Western world, but philosophy itself exists within many culture and is not exclusive to Greece.

Philosophy is theory, in it's base form. The word philosophy means "lover of wisdom", and as such philosophers seek out wisdom in all forms. In the world of MA, this leads to our ambition to know more.

If you want to label these two things within the world of MA, one could say that philosophy is theory, and wisdom is application. However, that would do a disservice to both of these concepts. There is so much more that goes into these two things, and to define them solidly would be difficult.

Now, that's a solid post!!



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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Zaine wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Philosophy is Greek and Wisdom is Oriental.


I disagree. Wisdom is the application of knowledge, and I hesitate to say that it has much to do with luck. It certainly can help us hedge bets, and move away from pure luck in situations, but that's as far as I am willing to go.

Philosophy, on the other hand, is far from being just Greek. We can certainly thank the Ancient Greeks for popularizing it in the Western world, but philosophy itself exists within many culture and is not exclusive to Greece.

Philosophy is theory, in it's base form. The word philosophy means "lover of wisdom", and as such philosophers seek out wisdom in all forms. In the world of MA, this leads to our ambition to know more.

If you want to label these two things within the world of MA, one could say that philosophy is theory, and wisdom is application. However, that would do a disservice to both of these concepts. There is so much more that goes into these two things, and to define them solidly would be difficult.

Now, that's a solid post!!


Socrates said that he possessed no wisdom but was a pursuer of it.

He was at least intelligent enough to realize that his logic contained no wisdom.

Many are very quick to talk about Chinese philosophy; I kindly like to point out that philosophy is Greek and not Chinese, wisdom however is oriental.

The ancient Chinese were far more advanced than their European counterparts, while they wore silk and the rest were wearing fur.

Logic is short sighted while wisdom is far sighted.

Just look at the state of today's European politics for some insight, how is Greek logic compared to Chinese wisdom?

As the Chinese have offered to bail out Greece from its debts.

Why is it that the martial arts from (All) oriental Eastern cultures are of more interesting to Westerners than the Grecian West, such as the Spartans?

Nothing has really changed, still Westerners steal from Chinese cultures (since the middle ages) rebottle it or rename it and call it something else.

Give credit when credit is due; please.

Gun powder was a Chinese invention used for celebrations till the West used it, to dominate other cultures with.

Spaghetti isn't Italian, it is Chinese originally, that was discovered by Marco Polo.

Crop rotations and agriculture is Chinese in origin, that were introduced to European farmers in the Middle Ages.

Where would this forum and martial arts be if it was devoid of Chinese/oriental wisdom and only Greek logical/philosophical statements and opinions could be used?
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think wisdom is only oriental and philosophy only Greek, or vise versa. We all have philosophical ideals, whether we refer to them or not. All cultures have wisdom; it isn't the sole invention of the orient.

Philosophy is based on what you believe and how you approach aspects of life. Wisdom is taking what you've learned through your life experiences and applying it to the events that happen in your life.
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Zaine
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Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Socrates said that he possessed no wisdom but was a pursuer of it.

He was at least intelligent enough to realize that his logic contained no wisdom.


This is not what Plato meant. What Plato writes in The Apology is that human wisdom is worth little when we consider the wisdom of the gods.

Furthermore, logic is not the absence of wisdom. Applying logic gives us a clear and defined path to our goal. The Chinese use logic as well. In Daoism, those in the School of Names were logicians.

Quote:
Many are very quick to talk about Chinese philosophy; I kindly like to point out that philosophy is Greek and not Chinese, wisdom however is oriental.


Again, I think it is incorrect to call philosophy exclusively Greek, and wisdom exclusively oriental. There are plenty of other branches and traditions of philosophy that aren't Greek, and Eastern philosophy has a rich and very ancient tradition.

Wisdom is universal, and in the end I think that anyone can seek wisdom, regardless of what area of philosophy they ascribe themselves to.

Quote:
The ancient Chinese were far more advanced than their European counterparts, while they wore silk and the rest were wearing fur.


I think this particular statement is a little unfair. Silkworms are native to China. Would European nations have created silk if they were native to Europe? That's unknowable. Since it is unknowable, it's not something that we can really debate about.

However, I will say that clothing depended heavily on the climate of the area. People that wore fur generally lived in frigid climates, whereas people in warmer climates moved to other, lighter materials when they could.

Quote:
Just look at the state of today's European politics for some insight, how is Greek logic compared to Chinese wisdom?

As the Chinese have offered to bail out Greece from its debts.


I think this is also an unfair statement. Multiple countries offered Greece aid. Was it wisdom that caused Greece's collapse? It's unlikely. Nor do I think philosophy played a hand in the event either.

Quote:
Why is it that the martial arts from (All) oriental Eastern cultures are of more interesting to Westerners than the Grecian West, such as the Spartans?


Source? Eastern martial arts are certainly more globally popular, but Greece is far from the dominate area for WMA. We are beginning to see a restoration in interest in WMA, and it's been very awesome to be a part of.

Quote:
Nothing has really changed, still Westerners steal from Chinese cultures (since the middle ages) rebottle it or rename it and call it something else.


While this is true, I do not see how this is different from what Eastern cultures steal from the West. Culture is a constantly evolving thing. Every culture takes what it likes from others, and adapts it to themselves.

Quote:
Gun powder was a Chinese invention used for celebrations till the West used it, to dominate other cultures with.


China used firearms before the West did. Furthermore, Middle Eastern countries were the first to use what we generally think of as a gun in the 14th century.

Quote:
Spaghetti isn't Italian, it is Chinese originally, that was discovered by Marco Polo.


I couldn't find anything that agreed with this. The closest thing I found is that the Italian spaghetti noodle is likely a descendant of Asian noodles. Again, I think this goes back to my argument on cultures borrowing from others. The dish called spaghetti is solidly an Italian one.

Quote:
Crop rotations and agriculture is Chinese in origin, that were introduced to European farmers in the Middle Ages.


The earliest evidence of crop rotations we have are from around 6000BCE, and originated in the Middle East. So while that is still Asian in origin, it is not Chinese. It seems that the West knew about it long before the Middle Ages.

Agriculture can also be traced back to this time. Again, the West knew about agriculture long before the Middle Ages.

Quote:
Where would this forum and martial arts be if it was devoid of Chinese/oriental wisdom and only Greek logical/philosophical statements and opinions could be used?


I think we would be in the same spot. This is a great forum, and I think that logic plays a large part in the questions and answers that make up this community.

I think that it is important to remember that the goal of philosophy is wisdom, regardless of origin. Greek philosophy is big in the West because it is a part of Western culture. Chinese philosophy is big in the East because it is a part of Eastern culture.

I think that as MAist, we pursue wisdom through philosophy. I think that as humans we pursue wisdom through philosophy.
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Last edited by Zaine on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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