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Do you think he should go through a grading for it?
Yes
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No
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Total Votes : 1

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Nidan Melbourne
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: worrying Reply with quote

Now in a previous thread in another part of the forum (Link: http://www.karateforums.com/a-friend-mentor-colleague-finally-awarded-his-black-belt-vt46062.html) I want your opinion on this matter.

In the thread i just put here, the person in question was awarded his black belt as an honorary thing because he had to cease training due to his injuries to his eyes and various other injuries. Now he never completed a grading to receive his black belt; be it a physical or written.

He has since returned to training and it also against the doctors recommendations that he was treated by. Because he was told and passed onto us that if he received one more hard hit to the temple, eyes etc he would become blind permanently.

Since he has been training again for a couple of months now he has actually gotten worse in relation to techniques and he is displaying disrespect to everyone else by essentially walking around like he is top stuff.

My sensei often looks really unhappy with this guy because he isn't showing the maturity of holding the rank of Shodan-Ho and that he (the student) told sensei and all of us that he was going to stop training. Since He was given the belt out of respect for the years of hard training and that he stopped, that was fine but the fact that he is now training with it on and not grading for it properly we felt that he kind of cheated his way to receiving his black belt without that grading.

And his attitude towards everyone is poor and every time he comes in to train i feel like he is slapping everyone in the face because he walks around like he owns the place and tries to line up inbetween the Shodans (He holds the rank of Shodan-Ho). And he argues that he should be mixed in with the shodans because he is a black belt.

He may have been training longer than a lot of us have been but it still doesn't give him the right to line up with those who have graded.

I have watched his technical ability on top of his knowledge base over the last few years and they haven't been all that good. And definitely not considered black belt standard. Now i understand that his age may inhibit some of the things he could have done when he was younger but still by now he should be knowledge enough to use techniques that he can do to a high standard.

I feel like he used his injuries as an excuse not to go through the grading process. I have read previously on this forum that you would do a grading over several weeks instead of doing everything in one hit like you would normally do at a grading. And I had suggested that format of grading for those who can't physically complete a 6+ odd hour grading in one shot.


What are your opinions on this? I know this might sound like i don't understand why he came back to train but i get it, my issue is that he is wearing the belt that sensei gave him out of respect and that it was honorary. So I feel like if he wanted to train again properly he should have worn his 1st kyu belt and grade for his black belt properly.
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Archimoto
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. I totally get how you feel. This situation is supremely tough.
The biggest problem is that I think that you're right and yet there's not much that can be done about it.
I think that you trust your sensei, let this play out over time, and focus on yourself and your own improvement. Over the years when unique circumstances like this present themselves I've always found comfort in focusing on my training. The rest will sort itself out I believe. Other than creating a nuisance is the situation directly affecting you? Just curious....
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Nidan Melbourne
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It frustrates more than anything because I worked hard and graded to each rank.

What he did was basically say he is going to stop and receives the belt as a honorary thing. And comes back to train wearing that rank and he hasn't graded properly for it.

Now it isn't really being fair to every one in the school, as we all went to gradings to earn each rank.

Archimoto how would you feel in this situation?
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wagnerk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You question was "Do you think he should go through a grading for it?"

IMO, I believe the answer is yes, he should go through the grading*. However for what grade would be down to the organisation itself. And whether or not he passes, is a different question. Even if the grading is modified for him, the standards of the association should be kept.

If he was awarded an honorary grade of Shodan-ho, again imo, when he lines up he should be inbetween the 1st Dan's and the 1st Kyu's, not mixed up with the Shodans as he hasn't been granted that rank yet.

*Every association is different (that's I've come across) when it comes to honorary grades, from what I've seen the common thing among most organisations is that if you start down the honorary grades route you can't switch between the two when it comes to promotions. E.g. So if during his last grading, he was awarded the 1st Kyu and then awarded an honorary Shodan-ho. The next physical/written grading the person would be going for would be Shodan-ho (if that is your normal grading system, if not then Shodan).

However again, it's just my opinion...
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Nidan Melbourne
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue is that his skill level has dropped considerably nor fully at it as well. And isn't even at the same standard of others at shodan-ho.

I've talked to sensei previously and I have suggested to him that the student should grade properly for it.

At my school we don't grade automatically from 1st kyu to shodan. Hence shodan-ho, for us this is to ensure that all students have the chance to refine even more prior to shodan.
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mal103
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm affraid someone should have stopped him the second he returned to the Dojo with his honourary BB on and stated that if he is back training then its as a 1st Kyu. As you have allowed him to continue training thinking he is a normal BB then it will be difficult to take it away.

He should have had the humilty and respect to ask if it was okay to return to training and wear the BB, most people would have not assumed this.

Due to previous injuries then I would setup a grading but have it split up into manageable sections and maybe exclude full sparring for medical reasons.

It may resolve itself if he continues and improves the standard but he will always be known as the one who didn't earn it, I think most people would accept a modified grading.
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Hawkmoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... messy!

I'm inclined to agree with mal103, with regards to what could/should have happened, hind sight is a wonderful teacher. However it is rubbish at providing a solution retrospectively!

What is the time frame here?
... by this I mean he was 'awarded' his BB, sure ok got that, he then left for how long? and has been back how long?

Depending on the time frames involved depends on what might be possible.
Be this someone simply saying
Quote:
"On medical grounds, I cannot permit you to train anymore, sorry."

His safety, as well as the safety and well being of the other students is and must always be the driving factor here, else a healthy insurance policy is advised!

Maybe being called to one side by sensai to discuss his continued involvement in the dojo of this guy will require him, as a mark or respect, a show of honor and humility to everyone, that he does take his grading, as a one shot test 6+ hours...etc
The only other exception being no combat, and all of this clearly explained due to the medical condition!

Everyone one has rights, the others have rights to protect there safety, sensai has rights to protect his dojo, the BB has a right to run his life his way

(I wonder if maybe being given the honorary award is messing with his mind a little, a plastic BB, not a real BB that sort of thing, maybe the opportunity to earn 'a real BB' in a real test is what he needs!)
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Nidan Melbourne
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw him (the student) last night and had a coffee whilst we discussed everything, and SIDE NOTE: it was a random meeting because we ran into each other.

This discussion became a heated argument (we weren't in a cafe or anything, just got take out coffee from Mcdonalds), because I voiced my concerns and he was the one to escalate it (near to throwing punches). I had to tell him that not only was he putting himself at greater risk of injury (and losing his eyesight) but also the schools and the instructors reputation and livelihood.

He already has reduced vision due to his previous surgeries on it and that if someone landed 1 hard kick or strike to his head he will become totally blind. So whenever anyone partners him we can't do headshots because of that risk; which is not doing us any good at all and also it means that we have to go easy on him. Now going easy on someone is not good to anyone because we aren't really learning much at all from it, the only time you take things easy on people are your lower ranked students.

I told him that by returning and wearing the black belt and not grading for it is disrespecting all the students that have graded through the color belts and also to those who graded to black belt and to the dan ranks. By him returning to the dojo and wearing the belt that sensei gave him as a farewell thing and honorary belt. In my mind it was like "why should i have to grade, when you get it for nothing?" and he is talking about going for shodan, and that is even worse because he has not graded in a long time and not truly earnt the Shodan-Ho rank.

Now for a man in his late 50's early 60's there are some things that physically he can't do, but that should be no excuse for not doing a grading. I am 22 and i have major knee issues and am overweight; I still did a 6.5 hour grading for my dan grade and i didn't complain once. I was in so much pain from start to finish, but never gave up and said to everyone "don't go easy on me because i am in pain, I would rather drop dead than stop grading". I also wanted to show that i am determined and respect for sensei. Because he wouldn't want me to stop because of the amount of pain that i was in, and that he wouldn't have told me that i was ready to grade if i wasn't. Also I haven't mentioned this but i had a tear in the articular cartilage of my left patella that day and it was excruciating. BUT my doctor gave me clearance on the proviso that i see him the following Monday (i had booked it in immediately after him telling me that).

Black Belt gradings are obviously longer, harder and more complex than Kyu gradings. They are usually there to show the instructors your attitude, mental toughness and determination plus if you have the attitude of a black belt or dan grade. Especially if you have the maturity of one.

Now I told him that sensei gave him the belt as the sign of respect, and by him not showing the respect in return or showing the respect and maturity to others shows me that he has the attitude that he is better than everyone else.

Heck when i train at any Goju-Ryu Dojo, I will ask if it is ok if i wear my black belt, especially since every dojo has some differences in relation to kata, kihon kata and kumite. Even terminology may be different. If they say yes i say "thank you for allowing me to wear my rank", but when bowing in i won't line up the ranks of the students I will line up on the side of the most senior ranked person (so at a right angle to them) in my own line. My Girlfriend of whom i teach privately asks the same question if she can wear her green belt or if she will wear a white belt.

At any other style, I will tell the sensei i do hold a dan grade in Goju-Ryu Karate, and that I will wear a white belt since i don't know their curriculum. I will only do otherwise if they ask me to wear my black belt.

Now the student tried to convince me that he should be able to mix in with the dan grades because he has trained for so long and have me line up behind him in line. But i quickly dismantled that because 1) I am ranked higher than him and graded for it. 2) He is breaking protocol for it (Nidans line up to the right of Shodans, and in turn Shodans in front of Shodan-Ho's) and 3) He is disrespecting all the dan grades for trying to do that.

Irregardless of how long you have trained for, you will still have more highly ranked students in front of you.

Also he tried to bring up various other points that were illogical and that i dismantled quickly. Even though I am young, I am not stupid and this is what he was trying to make me to come across as.

One of the points was that, he knew the applications for kata and kihon better than i did. I dismantled it by asking him what a certain application for a step in Sanseru kata would be and he absolutely butchered it. I have to created Kyogi for this kata and came up with every possible application for it. The step I asked him to come up with an application for (i gave him plenty of time to come up with one) for the step up front kick (or fancy jumping front kick), and he couldn't tell me an application for it and when i suggested the knee in it that step all he told me was a standard knee when you have them bent over. When i asked him for another for that exact step he got nothing.

To attain Shodan-Ho as an adult you need 25 seeiunchin kyogi, then Shodan 25 Different Seeiunchin Kyogi. That is to show that you have developed a better understanding of the kata and how to use the techniques. I asked him how many he has come up with and he said 15. Now for someone who has been a 1st kyu for a long time you would think that he would have come up with more than 15. if you aren't sure what i meant by kyogi click on the link in my signature and read the post on Kyogi.

He stormed off in a huge huff (and he nearly had a swing at me as well), and i ensured i called my sensei straight away to tell him of what happened and that i was in the right and the other person in the wrong. So apparently he (sensei) is going to have a discussion with the student tonight about his behavior.
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Archimoto
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:


Archimoto how would you feel in this situation?


I think I would feel exactly the same way as you. Also it's a tough situation for which the sensei in my opinion appears to share some of the blame. I know it's easy for me to say but I truly think you ride this out and let things fall into place on their own. If anything simply ignore this guy and use it as motivation to train harder. There is a terrific post by Sensei8 in another thread, I think in the articles section, where he talks about The Floor. It's a great read, in this case I think THE FLOOR will sort it out!

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Nidan Melbourne
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as an update on the situation. He has become more aggressive and prone to having outbursts at others and at property owned by the center where we train.

I'll start with the property that the center owns. He walked into the room and went past the chairs and the bags and placed his bag on the floor on the other side of the room. He then walks back towards the door and walks into one of the chairs. He then proceeds to pick it up and throw it around and started swearing.
- Do know he arrived at 6:50 when the last juniors class was still in progress
- No one got hit by the chair and there was no damage.
Now if the chair got broken or anything major got broken we would have lost our rental agreement with the center and therefore would be able to continue training at the center (or any of the other centers operated by the council).

Now the aggression towards others he is starting to become abusive to others, whilst they haven't done anything wrong. For example my girlfriend was at the dojo one night watching us train and she had to have her legs straight due to her severe arthritis (Juvenile Arthritis). Peter walked past her fine when she had her legs straight and when he went past again he walked into her legs (She had NOT moved since he first went past) and became abusive towards her. Now she didn't know he was blind (Basically) and would have moved her legs if she was told.

also this wasn't an isolated incident, where he has done it several times to many people
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