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JiuJitsuNation
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Joined: 09 May 2010
Posts: 447
Location: ominpresent
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
I think that's a given. No one's disputing it.

The gist is that the sheer athleticism and size of one of them would be difficult to overcome. Espicailly given the folk/freestlye/greco background that many of them possess.


Yes! I would say Jeff Monson, Rhadi Ferguson or Roger Gracie would be a humbling experience for any of those guys. look them up on youtube. Being as they are "wrestlers" who better to pit them against than a REAL professional grappler.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15065
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying that WWE wrestlers can't "wrestle" if they had to. What I'm saying is that I don't think that WWE wrestlers can truly seperate the fake wrestling of the WWE from the real mma wrestling. Brock Lesnar has proved that it can be done it the UFC, but Brock, for now, is the only one. Ken Shamrock couldn't seperate the real mma wrestiling from the WWE fake wrestling, and it showed, to such a point that nobody in the WWE wanted to "work" Ken Shamrock at all because he'd all of a sudden revert back to his mma roots, and WWE wrestlers were afraid of getting hurt.


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JiuJitsuNation
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Joined: 09 May 2010
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Location: ominpresent
Styles: BJJ Judo

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True story. Brock was a D-1 wrestler in college and national champion.
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MMA_Jim
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Joined: 05 Dec 2007
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Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Quote:
Against a professional fighter, of course I dont think they're doing anything in particular, but a traditional martial artist who does it as a hobby- he'll get manhandled.

Manhandled? To me, it seems that you don't think much about traditional martial artists, that's cool, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.



Well, you're half right, but the amount of muscle they've got on their bones, you could hit them as hard as you could and they'll probably laugh at you. Again you'd better be a sizable individual yourself (around 200+lbs) if you're expecting to drop them with strikes.

I've trained with a guy who was a former pro football player- around 6'7 285lbs when he was "light" and believe me, it was all muscle. When sparring against the Muay Thai instructor, who was an undefeated pro, but around 165lbs, he'd walk through many of his strikes and smother him against the ropes. It helped a little that he had some Greco experience as well.

The point is that theres so much muscle surrounding these guys that you're not going to drop them with one shot. These guys are used to taking some of the hardest shots that humans can muster- trust me they're no stranger to being hit. In a thai fight, the shots would add up and probably drop him against that same opponent, but one strike one kill is not going to work in this case, and you'd better have some good takedown defense (read: grappling skills) if you want to keep them from taking you down.

Now, you're welcome to disagree (obviously) but ask yourself- who's the largest and strongest person you've sparred/trained/fought against? Any professional athletes? Thats what pro wrestlers are- pro athletes.

Im not trying to give a WWE wrestler a credit for being a good fighter, but I am giving credit where credit is due. You'd be suprised how far size and strength will take someone in a fight, ESPECIALLY if you're looking to trade strikes with them, and these guys have plenty of it.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
one strike one kill is not going to work in this case,

As a tradionalist, this is nothing more than a saying from times way past. Yet, the meaning is still understood by every traditionalist. I'm not going to kind-of hit them, no, I'm going to hit them as hard as I can and more. If they still don't fall, I'll keep hitting and hitting and hitting them until they drop. And if they want to go to the ground, great, I'm more than affable on the ground as well.

Not all traditionalist come from the same mold. I'm not a patty-cake type of traditionalist at all!


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MMA_Jim
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Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Quote:
one strike one kill is not going to work in this case,

As a tradionalist, this is nothing more than a saying from times way past. Yet, the meaning is still understood by every traditionalist. I'm not going to kind-of hit them, no, I'm going to hit them as hard as I can and more. If they still don't fall, I'll keep hitting and hitting and hitting them until they drop. And if they want to go to the ground, great, I'm more than affable on the ground as well.
Not all traditionalist come from the same mold. I'm not a patty-cake type of traditionalist at all!



Isnt that the general plan when you're striking anyways?

The biggest problem here is sheer size and strength, as Im envisioning a 275lb 7% body fat pro wrestler who throws weight around like its nothing.

So we're talking great discrepancies here, and strikes are allowed on the ground (and the feet- you wont be the only person hitting). The ground game CAN change alot (it does for most people, unless you REALLY understand your jiu jitsu) when strikes are introduced. Lets not forget that it took Royce Gracie, who had 20+ years of training, 15 minutes to successfully land a submission against Dan Severn, who had almost no submission defense to speak of. Not to be meant as a slight against him, it took him that long because he gave up around 80lbs in that fight. And again, he was a Gracie Jiu Jitsu black belt with over 20 years experience.

So since you said it- how much experience do you have on the ground that you'd feel comfortable with such a weight disparity?
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sensei8
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isnt that the general plan when you're striking anyways?

Yes it is, but imho, the Ikken hisatsu of today must to tailored to the times of today, in that, one might not be enough. I'm very aware that I won't be the only one hitting.

Quote:
So since you said it- how much experience do you have on the ground that you'd feel comfortable with such a weight disparity?

In Shindokan we start teaching "ground-work"/grappling at the Green belt level and up. So, I've 40 plus years experience on the ground. So, I personally, feel very comfortable on the ground. Not just strictly Shindokan methodologies because I believe that the answer to complete totality lays with cross-training with other martial arts that are very, very solid in their ground-work.

But, while I respect a pro-wrestler...I've no concern with them.


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MMA_Jim
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Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Quote:
Isnt that the general plan when you're striking anyways?

Yes it is, but imho, the Ikken hisatsu of today must to tailored to the times of today, in that, one might not be enough. I'm very aware that I won't be the only one hitting.

Quote:
So since you said it- how much experience do you have on the ground that you'd feel comfortable with such a weight disparity?



In Shindokan we start teaching "ground-work"/grappling at the Green belt level and up. So, I've 40 plus years experience on the ground. So, I personally, feel very comfortable on the ground. Not just strictly Shindokan methodologies because I believe that the answer to complete totality lays with cross-training with other martial arts that are very, very solid in their ground-work.

But, while I respect a pro-wrestler...I've no concern with them.




So thats 40+ years of grappling in a live environment with fully resisting opponents who are doing the same to you, ala a typical BJJ class yes?

I mean seriously, I've trained with guys who claim to have 20+ years experience in ju jitsu or some other grappling art, and after training with them I judge them to be about the level of a 6 month BJJ white belt. Lets not also forget that if you've got 40+ years, you need to consider your age.

To put things into perspective, some guys play pickup hockey, softball, or flag football, having played such sports since they were kids. Again, they have 20-30+ years of experience- that still doesnt mean they have any idea what they're doing....
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sensei8
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So thats 40+ years of grappling in a live environment with fully resisting opponents who are doing the same to you, ala a typical BJJ class yes?

Yes, once one obtains a Green belt. Any thing short of full resisting opponents ISN'T worth its salt.

Quote:
I mean seriously, I've trained with guys who claim to have 20+ years experience in ju jitsu or some other grappling art, and after training with them I judge them to be about the level of a 6 month BJJ white belt. Lets not also forget that if you've got 40+ years, you need to consider your age.

I'm sure you have trained with many who claim but can't produce any fruit, just as well as I have. Proof is on the floor! Consider my age? Consider it how? I'm 52. I was 7 when I started to learn Shindokan and I was just over 10 when I started to learn grappling when I earned my green belt.

Quote:
To put things into perspective, some guys play pickup hockey, softball, or flag football, having played such sports since they were kids. Again, they have 20-30+ years of experience- that still doesnt mean they have any idea what they're doing....

I concur, yet, this that you speak about, it just isn't me. Granted, Shindokan isn't BJJ and BJJ isn't Shindokan. I'm sure, as you are, that our methodologies and the like are different, but Shindokan, like any other style of the martial arts, has its pro's and con's.


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MMA_Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:

I'm sure you have trained with many who claim but can't produce any fruit, just as well as I have. Proof is on the floor! Consider my age? Consider it how? I'm 52. I was 7 when I started to learn Shindokan and I was just over 10 when I started to learn grappling when I earned my green belt.


A man has the capability to enhance his strength well into his 50's- what starts to severely diminish is his cardio and his recovery. Fighting isnt like the karate kid where the old wise man can tear a hole through the young spry athletic student. Again, still at 52 you have (and will continue) to be able to develop your strength to be moreso than someone half your age, but the same does not hold true for your endurance and recovery. As a result, an athletic guy with good cardio can become troublesome. (i.e. a young former wrestler)
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