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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
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I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills?
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills? |
Solid post!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills? |
It's a good question. Maybe there isn't any?....
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http://www.sunyis.com/
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills? |
It's a good question. Maybe there isn't any?.... |
What are the benefit(s) if there aren't any formalized drills?? Perhaps uncertainty of any continuity of some degree for either the student and/or the instructor. Possible chaos on the floor...should I learn this first....or that first...or at the same time...oh never mind...
The benefits that I see in formalized drills is that there must be a learning starting point somewhere and somehow. Then perhaps, once a learning starting point is understood and established, the non-formalized learning point begins.
In learning/teaching anything, a starting point must be understood and established. Baby steps at every turn of learning/teaching, whatever those baby steps are.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills? |
It's a good question. Maybe there isn't any?.... |
What are the benefit(s) if there aren't any formalized drills?? Perhaps uncertainty of any continuity of some degree for either the student and/or the instructor. Possible chaos on the floor...should I learn this first....or that first...or at the same time...oh never mind...
The benefits that I see in formalized drills is that there must be a learning starting point somewhere and somehow. Then perhaps, once a learning starting point is understood and established, the non-formalized learning point begins.
In learning/teaching anything, a starting point must be understood and established. Baby steps at every turn of learning/teaching, whatever those baby steps are.
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I'm not sure I follow. Why would one need formalized, impractical drills to ensure continuity, when we have kata? Why would one need formalized, impractical drills to maintain order and prevent chaos on the floor, when we have an instructor leading the class? I would also argue that starting with realistic drills would provide a "learning starting point" that is much more practical than the formalized drills. We don't even start having our students work the formal yakusoku kumite drills until 7th kyu prepping for 6th, and by that point we have taken them through quite a few practical self defense drills against realistic attacks. It hasn't caused a problem, and I'm honestly
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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We do a lot of these things at the kyu and dan levels. I’ve only seen the dan level drills and haven’t learned them because I’m a 1st kyu, so I won’t comment much on them.
We do 10 “basic self defenses” which are 1-step. We do 10 “intermediate self defenses” which are also 1-step, but these end with a sweep, throw, etc. The basics all the the traditional blocks, whereas the intermediates don’t have as many.
Then we have yakusoku kumite. 4 at the kyu ranks. These don’t have traditional blocks, they start out of a fighting stance, and it’s stressed to keep your hands up and not “chamber” as in traditional stuff.
My teacher presents all of them in what IMO is the best way: they’re not intended to be scripted responses. No fight is going to go that way. They teach distancing, timing, where to block (on the opponent’s strike), target selection, strike selection, etc. They’re principles rather than script/choreography.
The downfall of stuff like our basic and intermediate self defenses is twofold...
First, you need the right partner. Too many people back up too far. They should be at least an arm’s length away, if not closer. My former teacher used to have the defender reach out and touch the attacker’s shoulder. If you couldn’t touch, you were too far away. Not just touch, but put your whole hand on it. And a bit closer was better. My current teacher doesn’t stress that, and people get so far out of range that you don’t have to step to get out of the way. And because I get close, people start feeling uncomfortable and keep backing up. So I follow them Then there’s the people who throw the punch to where they anticipate it being blocked to rather than straight at the target. I don’t know which aggravated me more. I guess the people that do both at the same time.
The second downfall is the drills have to progress. Not being more complex with more and more difficult techniques being thrown defensively, but the attacks can’t be the stereotypical straight forward into zenkutsu dachi and straight gyaku tsuki with opposite hand hikite. And the attacker has to go faster and harder; better yet there needs to be more intent behind the attack.
If the intensity in attack and response don’t increase, there’s no growth beyond the first few kyu ranks. They’ll look prettier, but they won’t become more functional.
All IMO. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
I do think that many of the formalized drills can be adjusted to be more realistic--closing the gap to a realistic distance, changing the postures, throwing more realistic attacks, etc. We do that with some of ours, as well. My problem with it is that it has become something different from what it started out as, and none of the training of the formal drill really helps students when they transition to doing it more realistically. They have already gotten used to the long range, the stepping back, the impractical blocks, timing a formal karate-style attack, etc., and when none of that happens anymore, they get lost.
So, why not simply START with the realistic drills? The only reason I have seen is "safety," or to make it "easier for beginners," but I have not found either of those arguments to really be valid. I've taught realistic self defense drills to children on their first day of karate, and they have been able to pick them up and do them without hurting anyone. What benefit, really, is there in the formalized drills? |
It's a good question. Maybe there isn't any?.... |
What are the benefit(s) if there aren't any formalized drills?? Perhaps uncertainty of any continuity of some degree for either the student and/or the instructor. Possible chaos on the floor...should I learn this first....or that first...or at the same time...oh never mind...
The benefits that I see in formalized drills is that there must be a learning starting point somewhere and somehow. Then perhaps, once a learning starting point is understood and established, the non-formalized learning point begins.
In learning/teaching anything, a starting point must be understood and established. Baby steps at every turn of learning/teaching, whatever those baby steps are.
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I'm not sure I follow. Why would one need formalized, impractical drills to ensure continuity, when we have kata? Why would one need formalized, impractical drills to maintain order and prevent chaos on the floor, when we have an instructor leading the class? I would also argue that starting with realistic drills would provide a "learning starting point" that is much more practical than the formalized drills. We don't even start having our students work the formal yakusoku kumite drills until 7th kyu prepping for 6th, and by that point we have taken them through quite a few practical self defense drills against realistic attacks. It hasn't caused a problem, and I'm honestly |
You seem to misunderstand me, which is my fault!! I don't ever condone anything impractical anywhere. No one needs impractical anything whatsoever, and what we teach isn't impractical, whether it be formal or not!! Anything that either the CI and/or the Hombu have deemed as necessary training, is formal!! However, I despise anything I believe to be impractical, and anything impractical is ineffective.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
You seem to misunderstand me, which is my fault!! I don't ever condone anything impractical anywhere. No one needs impractical anything whatsoever, and what we teach isn't impractical, whether it be formal or not!! Anything that either the CI and/or the Hombu have deemed as necessary training, is formal!! However, I despise anything I believe to be impractical, and anything impractical is ineffective.
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As I mentioned earlier, I don't know what kinds of drills you do as part of your system, so you may very well use "step sparring" or "formal drills" or "yakusoku kumite" to describe practical drills. I simply use them to describe unrealistic, impractical drills because that is the vast, vast majority of such drills, such as these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3M6tdpoEUw
A drill consisting of a realistic attack, from a realistic distance, being reacted to with a realistic, practical, effective counter that works as you add resistance, can be considered a type of "yakusoku kumite" or "step sparring" drill, but is not what I'm referring to with my complaint
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
You seem to misunderstand me, which is my fault!! I don't ever condone anything impractical anywhere. No one needs impractical anything whatsoever, and what we teach isn't impractical, whether it be formal or not!! Anything that either the CI and/or the Hombu have deemed as necessary training, is formal!! However, I despise anything I believe to be impractical, and anything impractical is ineffective.
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As I mentioned earlier, I don't know what kinds of drills you do as part of your system, so you may very well use "step sparring" or "formal drills" or "yakusoku kumite" to describe practical drills. I simply use them to describe unrealistic, impractical drills because that is the vast, vast majority of such drills, such as these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3M6tdpoEUw
A drill consisting of a realistic attack, from a realistic distance, being reacted to with a realistic, practical, effective counter that works as you add resistance, can be considered a type of "yakusoku kumite" or "step sparring" drill, but is not what I'm referring to with my complaint |
That's Paul Walker, in the video link you provided, and his style is Shotokan, and he once trained for 3 years under Kanazawa Sensei...just for grins and giggles.
We do a wide variety of drills, including all versions of yakusoku Kumite, in which we consider them to be very practical FOR THE BEGINNER student. Aside from Jiyu Kumite, the beginner student learns distance, form, posture, timing, and focus, just to mention these few points.
As far as our intermediate level students and above, we do drills that forgo yakusoku Kumite all together, in which, we strongly introduce an intensive Close Range drills with severe resistant training, slowly ramping up the resistant severity to the Nth degree. After all, Shindokan is, and has always been, a in-your-face Close Range brand.
I can live with MAists calling what we do as impractical drills wise within our given media here, and that's because I live by one maxim...Proof Is On The Floor...anything else is an unfounded opinion.
Hopefully, I've not lost one iota of your respect!!
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on the post.
