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wildbourgman
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Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 163
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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What are the benefit(s) if there aren't any formalized drills?? Perhaps uncertainty of any continuity of some degree for either the student and/or the instructor. Possible chaos on the floor...should I learn this first....or that first...or at the same time...oh never mind...

The benefits that I see in formalized drills is that there must be a learning starting point somewhere and somehow. Then perhaps, once a learning starting point is understood and established, the non-formalized learning point begins.

In learning/teaching anything, a starting point must be understood and established. Baby steps at every turn of learning/teaching, whatever those baby steps are.


Completely agree that this is the best answer to Wastelander's question.

In our organization we recently had some leadership changes that came with some training changes that seemed very strange. For instance we change many of our kyu level katas to one count for each step regardless of how it used to flow before. As well as other changes that didn't seem to make since. For a months we thought this was just the new way things are going to be done for all ranks. New leader new rules, right?

After the next seasonal training camp it was explained that the new ways were set up so the instructors could see each step and make corrections in a large crowd and it was also mainly the new way to teach beginners. It seems that the multiple moves being done in some katas were very sloppy and not even the correct move. The instructors couldn't see it and fix that in" real time". So yeah it did not seem practical to practice this way but there was a good reason for it. If you translate this into how things were done years ago think about the pictures of Okinawan and Japanese training sessions with huge groups. I could see sparring getting chaotic to the point that these one and three step sparring drills were necessary.

In both of the styles I have trained in these types of drills get more and more advanced. You walk before you run.
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Quote:
What are the benefit(s) if there aren't any formalized drills?? Perhaps uncertainty of any continuity of some degree for either the student and/or the instructor. Possible chaos on the floor...should I learn this first....or that first...or at the same time...oh never mind...

The benefits that I see in formalized drills is that there must be a learning starting point somewhere and somehow. Then perhaps, once a learning starting point is understood and established, the non-formalized learning point begins.

In learning/teaching anything, a starting point must be understood and established. Baby steps at every turn of learning/teaching, whatever those baby steps are.


Completely agree that this is the best answer to Wastelander's question.

In our organization we recently had some leadership changes that came with some training changes that seemed very strange. For instance we change many of our kyu level katas to one count for each step regardless of how it used to flow before. As well as other changes that didn't seem to make since. For a months we thought this was just the new way things are going to be done for all ranks. New leader new rules, right?

After the next seasonal training camp it was explained that the new ways were set up so the instructors could see each step and make corrections in a large crowd and it was also mainly the new way to teach beginners. It seems that the multiple moves being done in some katas were very sloppy and not even the correct move. The instructors couldn't see it and fix that in" real time". So yeah it did not seem practical to practice this way but there was a good reason for it. If you translate this into how things were done years ago think about the pictures of Okinawan and Japanese training sessions with huge groups. I could see sparring getting chaotic to the point that these one and three step sparring drills were necessary.

In both of the styles I have trained in these types of drills get more and more advanced. You walk before you run.


As I mentioned, before, I'm not against structured training and using pre-arranged drills; it's the specific approach to drills that I have problems with. Breaking down kata into counts so you can check postures does make sense for a large crowd, but your example for sparring does not. If the "step sparring" drills were meant to break down sparring into drills that were easier to check and make sure people are doing them right, they would actually contain sparring techniques, which the vast majority of such drills do not contain, if you compare the drills to the kumite they do. I have learned and taught sparring drills for years, and while they are definitely pre-arranged and done step-by-step at first, they are still recognizable as things you would actually do in sparring. The formalized "step sparring" or "yakusoku kumite" drills do not, in any way, resemble such training methods. They are the karate version of busy work.
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wildbourgman
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Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastander, I would say that if you have people doing this type of training when its well below their skill level, then yes it's pretty much useless at some point.

I would say its beginner work.

You first take a student that's never struck anyone effectively and never received anyone's strike effectively and bring them up to perfect the initial basic steps. That's being prudent and patient as an instructor and as a student. You grow from there.

We had a new student at our dojo that was around 55 years old and never trained in anything especially martial arts. He asked me "how long before I can look like those two guys over there?" Those guys over there were two shodans that were 18 years old.

I laughed, but he was serious. I told him that his training would help him in multiple ways but that wasn't realistic. I told him just the self awareness he would gain from seeing and feeling the difference between the shodans and himself would help him. If it made him understand that people in his shape and level should retreat and/or avoid situations because you now understand who you are, that's a victory for his current level.

On the next level If you can avoid being knocked unconscious until help arrives that's the victory for that level and so on.....

In saying that, step sparring is for a certain level and some students need that more than others. You as an instructor have to decide when they move up to something more practical.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katas and 1,2,3, step sparring in art terms would be the colours and lines, they are the basis of making art.

The problem arises when not being creative or free to mix colours or explore the shapes that lines make.

Katas, making or cutting out shapes that fit together, similar to making a garment.

The garment has a use, for instance protecting oneself from the elements and with interior and exterior design features such as pockets that hold valuable information.

If the garment kata, getting cut out, always stays looking like a white lab coat, then the meanings of katas will be forevermore lost or severely lacking usefulness.

Or if the garment is ornately constructed then even a little rain or wind can destroy it.

On the other hand considering to construct the garment to be light enough but strong to be something useful and practical for self preservation purposes.

Problem with this is CI's without fully understanding art will keep the martial part and lack the importance of self expression.

This also happens in art classes, that when the teacher is artless the students suffer the consequences.

Might want to look at the art concept with sculpture which is 3 dimensional, as combat is three dimensional in nature.

Oriental Martial arts come from artistic cultures, something western mind sets can very easily miss the point.

Having an extensive art background makes understanding martial (fighting) arts far more clearer to what it is about.

Boxing can be broken down to look robotic, which it is when showing and telling how techniques work, but they don't dwell on it, like other martial arts do.

10hrs of my 36hr training week is focused on boxing.

While boxing training, I will slow down, almost robotic (kata) looking, just to do some self correcting and accessing, as always practicing fast can create bad habits, if not periodically checked.

Mechanics, Katas and one steps, are maintaining one's skills, similar to having the family car in the garage, to make corrections and adjustments for improving performance and efficiency.

Taking the car later on to the test race track, could be considered the one step.

Kick boxing was the missing link desolving robotic movements making striking arts fluid and being creative with combinations.

Now with the spotlight is on grappling arts, the importance of kick boxing has been sadly shelved.

This is why now in MMA where and when maists don't practice katas, their techniques can seem to be missing good form, whilst others that dwell on katas and the like cannot fight effectively, as missing the understanding of self expression.

This is why the TMNT (martial artists) were named after great renaissance artists, this is no coincidence, later re merging their origin as to be reincanated sons of Myomoto Musashi.
https://youtu.be/7EEi1cGwdOg
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Wastelander
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Wastander, I would say that if you have people doing this type of training when its well below their skill level, then yes it's pretty much useless at some point.

I would say its beginner work.

You first take a student that's never struck anyone effectively and never received anyone's strike effectively and bring them up to perfect the initial basic steps. That's being prudent and patient as an instructor and as a student. You grow from there.

We had a new student at our dojo that was around 55 years old and never trained in anything especially martial arts. He asked me "how long before I can look like those two guys over there?" Those guys over there were two shodans that were 18 years old.

I laughed, but he was serious. I told him that his training would help him in multiple ways but that wasn't realistic. I told him just the self awareness he would gain from seeing and feeling the difference between the shodans and himself would help him. If it made him understand that people in his shape and level should retreat and/or avoid situations because you now understand who you are, that's a victory for his current level.

On the next level If you can avoid being knocked unconscious until help arrives that's the victory for that level and so on.....

In saying that, step sparring is for a certain level and some students need that more than others. You as an instructor have to decide when they move up to something more practical.


The process you describe can just as easily be done with drills that use realistic attacks and defenses, with sound tactics. That's kind of my point--the drills I'm talking about don't do anything that another drill can't do better.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One step sparring.
https://youtu.be/pSIL_RK-eqU


One step teaches line fighting, which is something that is very easily to counter by side stepping and or using correct timing and distancing, with jamming and countering...

Yet where is the sparring in one step?
Sorry, but in one step, there is no Sparring!
Also it is punching and kicking air in an untruthful manner to a statuesque, dare I say the word "opponent"

As opposed to pad work, there is some feed back that something has been struck, also combinations are very overwhelming for those that have never experienced them, especially for one steppers.
As would you put the same person in the first video against the one in this second training video?
https://youtu.be/KB7JqvWTDTg

The pressure of boxing punching combinations is overwhelming for those that have never trained against a person that knows how to use them effectively.

Perhaps realistically practicing one step against boxing skills might turn out realistic fighters IMHO

As for boxers to train against one step sparring partners would cause a lot of laughter, this is not a joke, IMHO

As my heart felt condolences, goes out to all those, one, two or three... steppers, that have never had the opportunity to learn, or the realistic chance, of how to punch to their full potential; I say this with great sincerity.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because a practitioner has trained using one or three step sparring does not mean that they have not learned to punch to their full potential.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Just because a practitioner has trained using one or three step sparring does not mean that they have not learned to punch to their full potential.

Solid post!!



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wildbourgman
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Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
wildbourgman wrote:
Wastander, I would say that if you have people doing this type of training when its well below their skill level, then yes it's pretty much useless at some point.

I would say its beginner work.

You first take a student that's never struck anyone effectively and never received anyone's strike effectively and bring them up to perfect the initial basic steps. That's being prudent and patient as an instructor and as a student. You grow from there.

We had a new student at our dojo that was around 55 years old and never trained in anything especially martial arts. He asked me "how long before I can look like those two guys over there?" Those guys over there were two shodans that were 18 years old.

I laughed, but he was serious. I told him that his training would help him in multiple ways but that wasn't realistic. I told him just the self awareness he would gain from seeing and feeling the difference between the shodans and himself would help him. If it made him understand that people in his shape and level should retreat and/or avoid situations because you now understand who you are, that's a victory for his current level.

On the next level If you can avoid being knocked unconscious until help arrives that's the victory for that level and so on.....

In saying that, step sparring is for a certain level and some students need that more than others. You as an instructor have to decide when they move up to something more practical.


The process you describe can just as easily be done with drills that use realistic attacks and defenses, with sound tactics. That's kind of my point--the drills I'm talking about don't do anything that another drill can't do better.


I understand what your saying but to avoid being repetitive I think class size and venue and using common well known drills has its place especially in large organizations.

For instance on the JKA as well as the Shorin Ryu federation I'm in I can go to a seminar and perform one step drills exactly like I do in my home dojo with someone that doesn't speak my language and that I've never met before with no instruction. We know the same drills because its part of the syllabus. Now at our home dojo or during other portions of the same seminar we might do some more realistic self defense drills that takes more explanation.

Also there is certainly some tradition there too, if Hohen Soken or Gichin Funakoshi wanted us to practice a certain kata or a certain way of step sparring and I want to be in that association I can do it or find another group.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Just because a practitioner has trained using one or three step sparring does not mean that they have not learned to punch to their full potential.


Why teach or practice something such as one step sparring, that knowingly is full of huge flaws and weaknesses.

That by practicing them is not developing skills realistically, on the contrary it is instilling bad habits at the cost of the student's health, which they will depend upone, when you are not around to help them.

You all know the difference between what works and what doesn't in martial arts.

The future of martial arts is in your hands (the students) then why not give them the chance and opportunity to have a fighting chance.

It is similar to putting soldiers in a combat zone and not giving them the adequate training to survive or protect themselves.

Enough of out dated excuses, give students up to date Intel, as they are not fighting tooth fairies and snow men but more like gorillas and dobermans.

Example of training punches towards potential
https://youtu.be/cyo9aemxiTw
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