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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 158
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why teach or practice something such as one step sparring, that knowingly is full of huge flaws and weaknesses.

That by practicing them is not developing skills realistically, on the contrary it is instilling bad habits at the cost of the student's health, which they will depend upone, when you are not around to help them.

You all know the difference between what works and what doesn't in martial arts.

The future of martial arts is in your hands (the students) then why not give them the chance and opportunity to have a fighting chance.

It is similar to putting soldiers in a combat zone and not giving them the adequate training to survive or protect themselves.

Enough of out dated excuses, give students up to date Intel, as they are not fighting tooth fairies and snow men but more like gorillas and dobermans.


As I alluded to some of this is also about tradition and an organizations syllabus. If you want to teach under certain organizational banner you must teach that syllabus at a minimum, but you are more than free to add on. For many of us that is certainly a factor on some things we do.

One other thing is that is it possible that we are not seeing the full benefit that was intended? How many times has this been said about kata or certain katas and then you have someone like Ian Abernethy breakdown and explain the moves that people performed like a dance routine for years?
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2419


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Quote:
Why teach or practice something such as one step sparring, that knowingly is full of huge flaws and weaknesses.

That by practicing them is not developing skills realistically, on the contrary it is instilling bad habits at the cost of the student's health, which they will depend upone, when you are not around to help them.

You all know the difference between what works and what doesn't in martial arts.

The future of martial arts is in your hands (the students) then why not give them the chance and opportunity to have a fighting chance.

It is similar to putting soldiers in a combat zone and not giving them the adequate training to survive or protect themselves.

Enough of out dated excuses, give students up to date Intel, as they are not fighting tooth fairies and snow men but more like gorillas and dobermans.


As I alluded to some of this is also about tradition and an organizations syllabus. If you want to teach under certain organizational banner you must teach that syllabus at a minimum, but you are more than free to add on. For many of us that is certainly a factor on some things we do.

One other thing is that is it possible that we are not seeing the full benefit that was intended? How many times has this been said about kata or certain katas and then you have someone like Ian Abernethy breakdown and explain the moves that people performed like a dance routine for years?
Nothing wrong with katas except for those teaching inadequate Bunki.

The key to all of this controversy is first recognising things for what they are and second being willing to change.

Big organisation are similar to big ships, which take a lot of time to manouevre, yes they are big, strong and stable, with plotted out destinations.

They know their strengths and accept their weaknesses, which is where adapting to change is slow.

Whilst in the karate school, I attended, colour belts learned one step and spared that way, whilst the senior belts kick boxed the rest of us, seemingly for target practice.

As this was back in the late 1970's, in reflecting back on those times, they the CI's stayed within the syllables but on the floor, it was a very different story.

Where at the time it was puzzling on being taught one way with one step and getting beaten on when Sparring, with what all seemed to be something else entirely.

As unfair from the students perspective at that time, eventually I have learnt what they were doing, as it was do what I say as the system name requires, including the syllabus, whilst highest ranks had their own agenda which was cleverly established at the expense of the students.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2419


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are no longer living on an island (Okinawa) where information travels slowly,
this is (Sparta LOL) the information age.

Having the experience of age, to know what is worth developing and what is not is important.

Here IMHO are a few things (for starters) worth developing no matter what sort of fighter you are...

It is not about ego here, it is rather a matter for seeing the value in learning something worthwhile, no matter where the information comes from.

As if you don't care to know what is contained in these videos, due to being very good already, then your adversaries will certainly appreciate them

https://youtu.be/AHaSHHk9Y4M

https://youtu.be/BrrE7Bdc1aU

https://youtu.be/P2qaAfu-aOc

https://youtu.be/tpjt4g5fotY

https://youtu.be/SrAYvqHDdac
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2466
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildbourgman wrote:
Quote:
Why teach or practice something such as one step sparring, that knowingly is full of huge flaws and weaknesses.

That by practicing them is not developing skills realistically, on the contrary it is instilling bad habits at the cost of the student's health, which they will depend upone, when you are not around to help them.

You all know the difference between what works and what doesn't in martial arts.

The future of martial arts is in your hands (the students) then why not give them the chance and opportunity to have a fighting chance.

It is similar to putting soldiers in a combat zone and not giving them the adequate training to survive or protect themselves.

Enough of out dated excuses, give students up to date Intel, as they are not fighting tooth fairies and snow men but more like gorillas and dobermans.


As I alluded to some of this is also about tradition and an organizations syllabus. If you want to teach under certain organizational banner you must teach that syllabus at a minimum, but you are more than free to add on. For many of us that is certainly a factor on some things we do.

One other thing is that is it possible that we are not seeing the full benefit that was intended? How many times has this been said about kata or certain katas and then you have someone like Ian Abernethy breakdown and explain the moves that people performed like a dance routine for years?


I understand that they are a requirement in many organizations--I will be leaving one such organization at the end of the year, in fact. When I have had to teach such drills, I explain that I don't like them, and they aren't realistic or practical, but required by the organization.

Personally, I care little for traditions that do not serve to improve my karate, and the typical, formal step-sparring drills would fall into that category. I have had very knowledgeable and skilled instructors from 5th Dan up to 10th Dan explain what these drills are meant to teach, and I understand what they are saying, but I also disagree on much of it. Even where I agree that it teaches something, they have failed to convince me that such drills are the most EFFICIENT method of teaching those things.

As to one of your earlier points, I have found no issues with teaching practical drills as part of a large group--even withing the organization I've been a part of for 9 years, which is one that does step-sparring.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2419


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
wildbourgman wrote:
Quote:
Why teach or practice something such as one step sparring, that knowingly is full of huge flaws and weaknesses.

That by practicing them is not developing skills realistically, on the contrary it is instilling bad habits at the cost of the student's health, which they will depend upone, when you are not around to help them.

You all know the difference between what works and what doesn't in martial arts.

The future of martial arts is in your hands (the students) then why not give them the chance and opportunity to have a fighting chance.

It is similar to putting soldiers in a combat zone and not giving them the adequate training to survive or protect themselves.

Enough of out dated excuses, give students up to date Intel, as they are not fighting tooth fairies and snow men but more like gorillas and dobermans.


As I alluded to some of this is also about tradition and an organizations syllabus. If you want to teach under certain organizational banner you must teach that syllabus at a minimum, but you are more than free to add on. For many of us that is certainly a factor on some things we do.

One other thing is that is it possible that we are not seeing the full benefit that was intended? How many times has this been said about kata or certain katas and then you have someone like Ian Abernethy breakdown and explain the moves that people performed like a dance routine for years?


I understand that they are a requirement in many organizations--I will be leaving one such organization at the end of the year, in fact. When I have had to teach such drills, I explain that I don't like them, and they aren't realistic or practical, but required by the organization.

Personally, I care little for traditions that do not serve to improve my karate, and the typical, formal step-sparring drills would fall into that category. I have had very knowledgeable and skilled instructors from 5th Dan up to 10th Dan explain what these drills are meant to teach, and I understand what they are saying, but I also disagree on much of it. Even where I agree that it teaches something, they have failed to convince me that such drills are the most EFFICIENT method of teaching those things.

As to one of your earlier points, I have found no issues with teaching practical drills as part of a large group--even withing the organization I've been a part of for 9 years, which is one that does step-sparring.
If a person, including the CI enjoys one, two and three step sparring, perhaps than sticking solely to the rigid confinements usually seen, then maybe some free style one step practice would breathe some kind of life in to play.

Also suggest to try some one step, without prior knowledge of the technique being used, while wearing protective gear.

As kicking the groin is not socially acceptable in the Dojo (as everyone else is oblivious to suchlike behaviour) one step, no matter how much is practiced, should be aware of none Dojoiers kicking that area without hesitation, as this aspect is notoriously overlooked and unprotected by one steppers.
https://youtu.be/pvx4cr_PzkU

100 ways to attack the groin
https://youtu.be/gyXhysmMNhE

101 ways to attack the groin
https://youtu.be/sMwXuFwSiaU

Another factor to consider with one step sparring, is with the predicting and none predictiveness of practicing them, as opponents are full of surprises and respond unpredictability.

As spending time practicing what an opponent might do accordingly to a curriculum in a classroom setting among those trained to do the same thingy, is something which I find to be:

Agreeing with what has already been pointed out as
"organised despair"- Bruce Lee

With one step sparring they are used mainly for developing self defence scenarios and there are many types of blocks; as there are those that believe that they don't work in real life situations and here is why
https://youtu.be/0j_lCc-BM8A

https://youtu.be/P-5zUxCxUqY

https://youtu.be/UP9Q8VFILLU

https://youtu.be/_d1Wd6pDPEg

https://youtu.be/MDgBO8NC0aw

Versus

How to do advanced karate blocks
https://youtu.be/8kIFTot7lps
Don't forget to read the comments below this video.

Uke means "receive." In karate, uke refers to blocking techniques.
Giving and taking, the yin yang concept
https://youtu.be/9IGkhxM9hVo
Quote: "Karate is the art of sophisticated people"

Secrets of karate functional blocking
https://youtu.be/wthbaoK55fM
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my honest opinion...

Whether one supports it or not becomes quite mute when the CI decides what will or will not be taught/trained. If the student likes it or not, it will fall on deaf ears because the CI runs the dojo and not anyone else.

Get use to it!! If not, go somewhere else!!



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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2419


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
In my honest opinion...

Whether one supports it or not becomes quite mute when the CI decides what will or will not be taught/trained. If the student likes it or not, it will fall on deaf ears because the CI runs the dojo and not anyone else.

Get use to it!! If not, go somewhere else!!


There is nothing mutish here about one step, as seeing it for what it is can help younger people towards understanding how it might benefit them, by having more educated choices to look at.

Watered down one step for children is fine but when taught to adults the same way then there is an obvious problem.

Karate blocking has come under scrutiny in the wider marital arts community, there is an obvious problem with it being viable the way it is taught.

All techniques can be modified to make them safer to train with the safety latch switched on, blocks included, which to my mind is what is happening.

Take the safety latch off when blocking it becomes something very dangerous, as a block or deflection is also a devastating strike.

Does anyone really think that traditional martial arts is the same as it was in the past?

As in the past techniques were brutal and life threatening, today the health and safety latch is firmly in place, something to consider, not only when training but also in life threatening conditions.

Sometimes being brutally honest with the truth is not favourable but there is no denying it's effectiveness
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
In my honest opinion...

Whether one supports it or not becomes quite mute when the CI decides what will or will not be taught/trained. If the student likes it or not, it will fall on deaf ears because the CI runs the dojo and not anyone else.

Get use to it!! If not, go somewhere else!!


There is nothing mutish here about one step, as seeing it for what it is can help younger people towards understanding how it might benefit them, by having more educated choices to look at.

Watered down one step for children is fine but when taught to adults the same way then there is an obvious problem.

Karate blocking has come under scrutiny in the wider marital arts community, there is an obvious problem with it being viable the way it is taught.

All techniques can be modified to make them safer to train with the safety latch switched on, blocks included, which to my mind is what is happening.

Take the safety latch off when blocking it becomes something very dangerous, as a block or deflection is also a devastating strike.

Does anyone really think that traditional martial arts is the same as it was in the past?

As in the past techniques were brutal and life threatening, today the health and safety latch is firmly in place, something to consider, not only when training but also in life threatening conditions.

Sometimes being brutally honest with the truth is not favourable but there is no denying it's effectiveness

It is mute if I as the CI, says so, whether one agrees or not because I run said dojo without any ambiguity whatsoever. If others believe my decision, as CI, is wrong, harmful, and/or injustice, then so be it because it's my right as the CI.

Btw, I fully support one-step and so on and so forth. If I didn't, then I'd say so, and it would be so as to any training done in my dojo, and I'd care less what anyone would think!!

Proof is on the floor!!



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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2419


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
In my honest opinion...

Whether one supports it or not becomes quite mute when the CI decides what will or will not be taught/trained. If the student likes it or not, it will fall on deaf ears because the CI runs the dojo and not anyone else.

Get use to it!! If not, go somewhere else!!


There is nothing mutish here about one step, as seeing it for what it is can help younger people towards understanding how it might benefit them, by having more educated choices to look at.

Watered down one step for children is fine but when taught to adults the same way then there is an obvious problem.

Karate blocking has come under scrutiny in the wider marital arts community, there is an obvious problem with it being viable the way it is taught.

All techniques can be modified to make them safer to train with the safety latch switched on, blocks included, which to my mind is what is happening.

Take the safety latch off when blocking it becomes something very dangerous, as a block or deflection is also a devastating strike.

Does anyone really think that traditional martial arts is the same as it was in the past?

As in the past techniques were brutal and life threatening, today the health and safety latch is firmly in place, something to consider, not only when training but also in life threatening conditions.

Sometimes being brutally honest with the truth is not favourable but there is no denying it's effectiveness

It is mute if I as the CI, says so, whether one agrees or not because I run said dojo without any ambiguity whatsoever. If others believe my decision, as CI, is wrong, harmful, and/or injustice, then so be it because it's my right as the CI.

Btw, I fully support one-step and so on and so forth. If I didn't, then I'd say so, and it would be so as to any training done in my dojo, and I'd care less what anyone would think!!

Proof is on the floor!!


Having a window on other people's opinions, is this not interesting and insightful, also in some way inspiring?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14811
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
In my honest opinion...

Whether one supports it or not becomes quite mute when the CI decides what will or will not be taught/trained. If the student likes it or not, it will fall on deaf ears because the CI runs the dojo and not anyone else.

Get use to it!! If not, go somewhere else!!


There is nothing mutish here about one step, as seeing it for what it is can help younger people towards understanding how it might benefit them, by having more educated choices to look at.

Watered down one step for children is fine but when taught to adults the same way then there is an obvious problem.

Karate blocking has come under scrutiny in the wider marital arts community, there is an obvious problem with it being viable the way it is taught.

All techniques can be modified to make them safer to train with the safety latch switched on, blocks included, which to my mind is what is happening.

Take the safety latch off when blocking it becomes something very dangerous, as a block or deflection is also a devastating strike.

Does anyone really think that traditional martial arts is the same as it was in the past?

As in the past techniques were brutal and life threatening, today the health and safety latch is firmly in place, something to consider, not only when training but also in life threatening conditions.

Sometimes being brutally honest with the truth is not favourable but there is no denying it's effectiveness

It is mute if I as the CI, says so, whether one agrees or not because I run said dojo without any ambiguity whatsoever. If others believe my decision, as CI, is wrong, harmful, and/or injustice, then so be it because it's my right as the CI.

Btw, I fully support one-step and so on and so forth. If I didn't, then I'd say so, and it would be so as to any training done in my dojo, and I'd care less what anyone would think!!

Proof is on the floor!!


Having a window on other people's opinions, is this not interesting and insightful, also in some way inspiring?

Depends on many things, whether they are or not. I've an open mind, until I've cause to have a closed mind, as well.



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