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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: You're Not Old Enough!! |
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What I'm about to express, is for conversation, and not for judgement to be passed, please. I was an unwilling student who was trapped in a By-Law for 5 long years.
History...
In the very early days of the SKKA, which wasn't founded until Soke, with then Kaicho, Dai-Soke, moved to the USA in the late 1950's. Slowly but surely, their Student Body grew in a respective manner.
Over some time, the Student Body was an equal mix of kids and adults. Promotion within the Kyu ranks slowly grew from Jukyu to Ikkyu, and the Hombu faced their first Shodan Testing Cycle.
Kids were excited about that!!
But their excitement was quickly dashed with one sentence from Soke...
"You're not old enough!!" Soke never offered an explanation as to why, except..."Because I said so!!"
Complaints reeled in from many parents, and as fast as those complaints came in, they were cast away by an unfeeling and dauntless Soke; he was firm in his commitment.
Here at KF, this very subject has been covered from many different angles from both sides of the fence; pros and cons. Hopefully, this thread's a different angle...hopefully.
From the era Soke was born in, 1917, passed away in 2008, and from where he came from, Nanjo, Okinawa, and arriving in the USA to establish the SKKA/Hombu in the late 1950's...
Shortly after the very first Shodan Testing Cycle, where kids have earned an Ikkyu, had came and gone, Soke was vexed just enough to authorize the Junior Black Belt for those Ikkyu who earned the right to earn a JBB. However, same Testing Cycle for the JBB AND Shodan, but no one under 18 years of age is allowed to earn Shodan. BTW, that rule still is enforced to this day!!
Was Soke wrong in not allowing kids to earn a Shodan Testing Cycle??
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1637
Location: Naples, FL
Styles: Isshinryu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:40 am Post subject: |
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One thing I've learned after about a decade of these discussions is that "black belt" means something different at every school. There is no standard.
So at one school giving a black belt to a child would make no sense by their definition of black belt. At another school where black belt means just having the basics down, giving one to a child who has met that standard makes sense and there's nothing wrong with that.
The first question that needs to be asked is "what does black belt mean at your school". |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:54 am Post subject: |
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I believe the minimum age for our school has been 16, though a "Junior Black Belt" exists.
This rule was held fast until we had a student who came through and really turned heads. His skill-level is very high (he may be trying out for the Olympics.) When it comes to the non-physical, he also excels. His maturity level is much higher than I'd expect of his age. Our master instructor allowed him to test for second dan (jr. first dan to adult rank 2nd, typically reserved for age 18+) at age 15 or 16.
I feel rules are important, but sometimes find myself weighing the spirit of the law vs. the word of the law.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2359
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:07 am Post subject: |
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We have no steadfast rule on age. But all our students are promoted to Shodan-Ho, regardless of how good they are.
90% of our Black Belts wait longer than the minimum time before going for promotion. Our kids seem to wait 3-4 years prior to attempting for Shodan. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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We do not allow anyone to test for Shodan before the age of 16--and we have only had one person test at that age. He tested right alongside me, and had to do everything I had to do, but he did it with a broken foot (broken outside of the dojo, before the test). Hardly a typical teenager. We do have a "jun-shodan," or junior black belt, which they could potentially earn before that, and we have done a few of those, but not many.
Obviously, black belt ranks mean different things to different styles/orgs/schools/instructors, so there is no standard. Additionally, in the Western world we have elevated the black belt and put it on a pedestal that it was never put on in Japan or Okinawa. Personally, I'm quite happy with our standards, and all you can control is your standard.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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When a complete newbie joins a karate club for the first time, what are they led to believe black belt represents? When a parent puts their child into the trust of the person at the front, what are they led to believe black belt represents?
The marketing spiel usually promises self discipline, respect, confidence, fitness, self defence ability. Usually some or all of the above.
Are those things age dependent? I really don't know.
In our association, the minimum age is 10. We have 10 year old dan grades. We have to bow to them and call them sir. I do this to tow the line but I do worry. Do they have the right to be confident in their self defence ability? At that age, unless they're unlucky enough to have an unusually hard life, their idea of a 'real fight' is a brief exchange of taps until either someone cries or the teacher intervenes. |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think your Soke was absolutely right in that time. He was probably been seeking a mental/social maturity in his Yudanshas. quality is important for a new brand and he wanted to be known for the high quality of his art. a group of teenagers running with black belts couldn't help his cause.
on a side note, What was the lineage of your Soke before leaving Okinawa. what did he change/add to his original art? |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: You're Not Old Enough!! |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Was Soke wrong in not allowing kids to earn a Shodan Testing Cycle?? |
NO!
Right or wrong he was from an older generation that had their beliefs. Our Shinshii would not allow anyone under the age of 16 to study much less test for Shodan. Even though it is impossible for someone to earn Shodan in two years in our art the minimum age was 18. Typical time to Shodan is 5 to 7 years. This is how I was brought up in the arts and I maintain this with my students.
To give a bit of a historical perspective and possibly an insight into the age minimums. My Shinshii once explained that that older generation felt that a boy did not become a man until the age of 16. This is when they were required to go to work and help their families out (of course I'm sure kids were working prior to this age). This later changed to 18 when the old ways were taken over by modernization. He further explained that many older teachers would not teach the "true" art until a student reached the age of 16. Since Shinshii only taught the "true" art he capped off the minimum age to train at 16. Where 18 for Shodan came into the mix I have no idea and never asked.
I hold many of the old standards at heart and agree with many of the reasons for not promoting children to Shodan. But as you pointed out this has been discussed in other posts so I will end by stating I do not think your Soke was wrong in his judgement nor his decision.
Just my 2 cents.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
When a complete newbie joins a karate club for the first time, what are they led to believe black belt represents? When a parent puts their child into the trust of the person at the front, what are they led to believe black belt represents?
The marketing spiel usually promises self discipline, respect, confidence, fitness, self defence ability. Usually some or all of the above.
Are those things age dependent? I really don't know.
In our association, the minimum age is 10. We have 10 year old dan grades. We have to bow to them and call them sir. I do this to tow the line but I do worry. Do they have the right to be confident in their self defence ability? At that age, unless they're unlucky enough to have an unusually hard life, their idea of a 'real fight' is a brief exchange of taps until either someone cries or the teacher intervenes. |
are they junior black blets or full black belt? I can't imagin a 10 years old full black belt.
No disrespect to your school or any other schools but if I have a school and I give a black belt to 10 years old ( I don't care if he/she is better than Rika Osami) it only means I need money and I can't even wait. |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| P.A.L wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
When a complete newbie joins a karate club for the first time, what are they led to believe black belt represents? When a parent puts their child into the trust of the person at the front, what are they led to believe black belt represents?
The marketing spiel usually promises self discipline, respect, confidence, fitness, self defence ability. Usually some or all of the above.
Are those things age dependent? I really don't know.
In our association, the minimum age is 10. We have 10 year old dan grades. We have to bow to them and call them sir. I do this to tow the line but I do worry. Do they have the right to be confident in their self defence ability? At that age, unless they're unlucky enough to have an unusually hard life, their idea of a 'real fight' is a brief exchange of taps until either someone cries or the teacher intervenes. |
are they junior black blets or full black belt? I can't imagin a 10 years old full black belt.
No disrespect to your school or any other schools but if I have a school and I give a black belt to 10 years old ( I don't care if he/she is better than Rika Osami) it only means I need money and I can't even wait. |
They are full black belt. To be fair to them they are good kids, and they definitely have good technical skills. One of them (yes we have several ) can even spar pretty well. |
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on the post.
