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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:51 pm    Post subject: Your Favorite Koan Reply with quote

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Your Favorite Koan Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

It's the sound of what I'm trying to understand.

I'm not a Monk, nor am I striving to ever be a Monk; it's just not my cup of tea, even though I've read about the Koan out of curiosity because there were several books about the Koan in Dai-Soke's bookcase at his home, and he loaned it to me after he saw me glancing at it with a bewildered look upon my face. It has been sometime since I read the book.




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Bulltahr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to google it, Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive page on it, I have no idea how accurate tho...
Does explain the one hand clapping (enlightenment?) also....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan
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Zaine
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Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/V2kkzhb6YJQ

I think I've figured it out.
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Zaine
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Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joking aside, the posit was as follows: "Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?"

This, to me, means something different than your post. It's meant to focus attention on something that is traditionally outside the realm of possibility, where enlightenment lies. Of course, it's clear that you know that already, so you get what I'm saying.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I was taught about the use of a Koan, regarding martial arts was similar to the student's cup being full without any room for the master's cup of knowledge.

A Koan was a tool that the master used to break down the student's narrow mindedness and confuse the student.

Once the student's inflexible preconceptions were dissolved new ways of understanding could be learned.

I have never witnessed Koans being used in martial art schools; perhaps it has become a lost art.
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Zaine
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Styles: Shorin Ryu, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Mantis, Schola Saint George (Fiorian sword fighting)

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that it was meant to confuse the student. I think it was geared more towards making the student go down mental avenues that they may have not previously explored, which lines up with your other statements. It allows the student to lost that philosophical tunnel vision and explore their own mindscape with more lucidity.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I first read the books loaned to me those many years ago, my very first thought after reading them was that it was kind of like the concept of Shu Ha Ri...to obey [Shu], to digress [Ha], and to separate [Ri]...and in that order.

Then comes the sound of one hand clapping! One concept, Koan...One concept, Shu Ha Ri; the same, yet differently.




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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

koans are a way to broaden a person's awareness.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

koans are a way to broaden a person's awareness.

Yes, there's a sound when a tree falls...anywhere because it's impossible for the felled tree to not make any type of sound when it comes in contact with the ground or whatever it might be. But does the tree become self aware that there's no one there to hear that it's fallen?



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