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Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2279
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Boxing,Lars Wallin BJJ, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
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 Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Judo and Aikido came from Jujutsu. Definitely. If you find a good Jujutsu school I highly recommend it. Make sure they have lots of striking in it.
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"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Lock em out or Knock em out" |
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goshinman
Blue Belt
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 253
Location: pasadena,ca
Styles: hakko densin ryu jujutsu, shuai chiao, catchwrestling, and some judo/sambo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:27 am Post subject: |
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Jujutsu did go through a change in the 50's here in the states. Alot of Japanese jujutsu teachers started taking boxing and having boxers come and train with them. And then they turned around and started to evolve the techniques of the jujutsu to deal with boxing style punches. The whole purpose of the cross training with boxing was to gather the necessary info so that they could develope the best strategies for beating boxing which contributed to the whole rivalry between boxers and Jujutsu and especially judo experts that went on through most of the 60's. Some of TJJ's entering tactics and footwork as well as some of the fighting angles were modified as a result of this training.
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Tapped out, knocked out, or choked out...Take your pick.
http://jujitsu4u.com/
http://www.combatwrestling.com/
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Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2279
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Boxing,Lars Wallin BJJ, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:18 am Post subject: |
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The Jujutsu schools of Budo Taijutsu are mostly from Pre-1800's and what I've learned so far, it doesn't matter what kind of punches are thrown. It's all about closing the distance and taking the persons balance and taking them down, but not necessarily going down with him. Strikes and kicks are also used for this purpose as well. It's sad that those Jujitsu instructors in the fifties were probably taught Jujitsu from a Japanese Master that held back the real principles of fighting and probably only taught them techniques. Many American MA's were nothing more than KATA COLLECTORS. We all saw the KATA COLLECTORS in the early UFC's. 
_________________
"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Lock em out or Knock em out" |
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goshinman
Blue Belt
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 253
Location: pasadena,ca
Styles: hakko densin ryu jujutsu, shuai chiao, catchwrestling, and some judo/sambo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Treebranch wrote: |
| The Jujutsu schools of Budo Taijutsu are mostly from Pre-1800's and what I've learned so far, it doesn't matter what kind of punches are thrown. It's all about closing the distance and taking the persons balance and taking them down, but not necessarily going down with him. Strikes and kicks are also used for this purpose as well. It's sad that those Jujitsu instructors in the fifties were probably taught Jujitsu from a Japanese Master that held back the real principles of fighting and probably only taught them techniques. Many American MA's were nothing more than KATA COLLECTORS. We all saw the KATA COLLECTORS in the early UFC's. |
Well Treebranch you have to remember that alot of jujutsu systems came about after the 2nd world war. Most of the old masters saw boxing for the first time and deemed it necessary to learn to deal with so I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. But to address your point about the american jujutsu masters learning incomplete skills you are probably right because alot of the skills were lost during the Mejii era when the samarai were being considered archaic relics of japans violent past and most of the masters were either told outright to stop teaching the old ways or were driven underground to teach. Most of the Jujutsu that remained common during that time was used by highly under trained and undisiplined Bouncer types. This eventually lead to Judo replacing Jujutsu as japans premire martial art because the judoka were more skilled then the jujutsuka at the time. Most of the REAL jujutsu masters taught underground. Pick up a copy of Ultimate Jujutsu by Shihan Jonathan Maberry to read up on the demise of the true jujutsu. From what I understand the Taijutsu masters had ALWAYS been very secretive and selectful of who they trained so it is no suprise that most of the skills were passed along without being lost. Do you have any info on this?
Oh and LOL at your kata collectors! That is so true. From what I have been able to gather during the 60's in the US karate was always done full contact even when dojo sparring which resulted in serious injuries to lots of peeps. When the lawsuit happy 80's came along is when most dojo started the crap we see today. Most karate masters also had a knowledge of ground fighting back then and often crosstrained in Judo and akido.
_________________
Tapped out, knocked out, or choked out...Take your pick.
http://jujitsu4u.com/
http://www.combatwrestling.com/
http://gokor.com/ |
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Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2279
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Boxing,Lars Wallin BJJ, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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The only info I have is based on what I've read and was told by my teacher. Takamatsu the previous grandmaster was a Jujutsu Master that had possession of the scrolls that were passed down to him by his teachers. The scrolls contain techniques and training methods that were taught to him by his teachers. I would like to pick up a copy of the book you mentioned and I checked it out at the book store, very cool book. There is so much to Jujutsu that so many people don't know about, it's truely an amazing MA. I can't tell you how many people have challenged me and doubted the effectiveness of what I'm being taught. After a few what if I do this or what I do thats, they see very quickly that it doesn't really matter. The angles and the way we are taught to move our bodies usually is enough to snuff almost any attack. Of course experience and lots of randori and some full contact help tremendously. I think it's very important to train both hard and soft, which Kata Collectors mostly just train soft.
_________________
"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Lock em out or Knock em out" |
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cherub2
White Belt
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 7
Styles: Tang Soo Do (5th gup)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Tibby wrote: |
| I’m in a Jujitsu class what focuses a lot on Judo. Both Judo and Aikido come from Jujitsu. Judo is similar to Jujitsu in many ways, Except Jujitsu uses more striking and things of that nature. Judo is more of a Sports version of Jujitsu now a days. Aikido is more of an Art version, it is the Tia Chi of Jujitsu. |
sounds alot like paper-rock-scissors  |
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fragbot
White Belt
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Jiu Jitsu, Judo or Aikido? |
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| RagingNinja wrote: |
| I'm just posting this to see what you guys think of these arts individually. I would be very glad if you could post some information on what kind of techniques each of these arts are all about, as I am very interested, and may consider taking one of them up. Thanks. |
Let's hope I'm not too late to the party. My take:
1) judo -- primarily a sport focused on throwing with groundwork a close or distant second (depends on the coach), but it's a sport like rugby. Specifically, it's practitioners are tough. This is mainly, I suspect, due to the liveness of the free play training method they call randori.
FWIW, it also contains a two-man kata component designed for specific self-defense situations. This is where it gets its atemi as well as some locks prohibited in competition (AKA kote gaishi).
Signature techniques: standing full body throws (eg tai otoshi or seoi nage), foot sweeps, sacrifice throws (eg tani otoshi or tomoe nage), joint locks to the elbow, and choking
2) jujutsu -- really a pretty broad umbrella.
You have koryu styles like Araki Ryu that are what Ellis Amdur non-pejoratively calls "fossils." I'm not all that familiar with them, but, in my experience, they tend to have more of a weapons focus than meiji-era jujutsu (I've often heard these labelled gendai systems).
Over the last decade or so, jujutsu has often been associated with the Machados and Gracies out of Brazil. Likewise, jujutsu is often used as a term by judokas who teach judo+ or (IMO, sadly) karate+.
Signature techniques: too broad a term to list
3) aikido, OTOH, is a wholly different beast. It's a descendant of Daito Ryu aikijujutsu mixed with some cultish Japanese religion (someone help me out here). It's labelled an internal art and, as such, will have more extreme and exacting body alignment requirements.
Going by branch stereotypes, it runs the gamut from Yoshinkan (widely perceived to be pretty rough'n'tumble) to Ki Society (usually look like Cirque de Soleil on Bravo).
Signature techniques: any wrist lock or throw (particularly kote gaishi and shihonage), tenkan, and irimi nage (I guess it's okay to call those techniques). As an aside, Morihei Ueshiba is widely quoted as saying "aikido is 90% atemi." If it is, why is it an unusual aikidoka who can clobber someone (as an aside, I recommend Ellis Amdur's book "Dueling with O-Sensei" for his chapter on atemi in aikido)?
===================comparison===================
I once read something a karate sensei said about taijiquan (he also studied that system). He was asked, "how does karate compare to taiji?" Since I don't have the quote anymore, I'll paraphrase "karate is a super art for humans. taiji is an art for superhumans." I put aikido in that same category--it's freakin' amazing for the people who can make it work but the people who can carry off the body mechanics to make it work are too rare for my taste.
OTOH, while only a tiny fraction of judokas end up as Olympians, I'd wager the majority of the guys who're still around after 2.5-3 years will be significantly more formidable an opponent than they were previously.
I've always wondered how much attracting and retaining students in various systems has much to do with self-selection. Thus, over time, stereotypes (good or bad; y'alll's choice) tend to be self-fulfilling. |
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shazaam
Yellow Belt
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 94
Styles: Kickboxing, Karate, Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Good post Fragbot. You are very knowledgeable.
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on the post.
