Obstinate uke

mushybees · Orange Belt

In our dojo I'm fortunate to have a like minded training partner. We train with a level of physicality that I can't get with other students. On top of that we've become good friends over the years.
On the whole we train well together but he has a tendency to be very resistant during some partner techniques such as locking and throwing. I appreciate some resistance as complete compliance does neither of us any favours but I can't get him to see that he's resisting in a very specific way because he has foreknowledge of my attack or defence, he has the luxury of being in no real danger and he has all the time in the world to root himself on the spot before he's ready.
I've mentioned it to him a few times but as he's taller and heavier than I am and also a grade lower I suspect he may think I'm making excuses or being egotistical.
I can say, hand on heart, that isn't the case. I would rather know a technique works or doesn't for myself and my body type than delude myself. I often take what is being taught to the class and speak with my sensei to tailor it to my own emerging "style" of karate. I'm short and stocky and almost everyone else is taller so I have to adapt to height and weight differences all the time. That my karate is different to the next person's is what I love about it.

To my mind the partner drills we do are done with some compliance to simulate the distractions, unbalancing and posture breaking that would come from the strikes and jostling that would exist in reality. Also it means we don't have to risk injuring one another by having to escalate the force required to complete a technique.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and how have you dealt with it?

Tempest · Green Belt

Ok, I am not sure how this is for Karate, but I can tell you how I we handle it in Judo, and that is a 3 prong approach.
1. Let your partner and the instructor know CLEARLY what is going on so that there can be no confusion. To do this you MUST be sure that you are doing the technique correctly and not just relying on size and strength with other partners that you are not able to use with this partner.

2. You must recognize that sometimes people WILL be stiff and there is no way to know if your strikes, distractions, whatever will have any effect unless you are practicing a particular strike as part of THAT technique.

3. Finally, if you are SURE that you are doing it right and understand what is needed for the technique to work, and your UKE is denying you THAT PARTICULAR move because they know it is coming, then remember that it is impossible to deny one move without giving another. i.e. throw him in a different direction.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

sensei8 · KF Sensei

Greg Forsythe, our late Kancho, my best friend on and off the floor, is my junior by only 6 months. Over the many untold years, him and I have been training partners through the thick of it all, both the good as well as the bad.

Greg and I developed a type of Kumite training that very, very few fellow Shindokanist's can attest to. When it came to Jiyu Kumite, Greg and I literally tried to kill each other; heavy handed attacks with the intent to penetrate our target(s). That is how we trained!!

Our Sensei, Dai-Soke Takahashi, allowed it because him and his Sensei, Soke Saitou trained their Jiyu Kumite in the similar fashion, and with a resolved intent.

Greg and I knew each other quite very well; nothing was withheld, and nothing was foreknown either. We knew each other so well on and off the floor, that one might think that we were identical twins in the sense of familiarity. We'd know what the other was going to do before either of us did it

We were those two peas in a pod!! Literally, especially on the floor!!

In Shindokan, our training, ALL OF IT, is performed with resistance in mind. The only time that no resistance is offered is when a student is being taught said technique for the very first time.

This type of training can, and does, lead to sour feelings towards whomever one is training with. Things like, uncontrolled attacks/defenses can cause a plethora of feelings towards ones training partner.

"Ease UP!!"

That is the worse thing to say, especially in the earshot of Dai-Soke. If he hears that, he'll put you on your back unceremoniously, as he's reminding you to defend yourself at all times..."Don't whine, defend yourself!!"

At every turn, Greg and I had spats, and I mean we'd have some drag out arguments about a number of things. Mostly, when it came to the level of resistance. Not that we weren't resisting one another in a resolved fashion, but that we weren't resisting at a much higher level.

Understand this, please. Our methods are not barbaric, not even in the most slightest...in our eyes. However, an outside observer might garner that our methods are just that, barbaric, with no hint of civility.

Accidents, whenever training, happen from time to time, depending on the severity of the training, yet, tempers can hurl, in which one has to deal with them right at that very moment, however it's handled, just as long as it's handled appropriate, and hands are shook thereafter in an affable manner. Training must continue, and it's isn't conducive to do so all by oneself, so, Greg and I kissed and made up often!!

Training without resistance, imho, is limited training. The more resistance, the more is discovered across the board!!

In order to curb the pertinacious, especially when it peaks, and it does, is to work through it at all times; never sweep it under the rug, if it can be. If it can't be, then stay off the floor!!

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**Proof is on the floor!!!

mushybees · Orange Belt

Thanks for the replies.
Just to clarify, when sparring, we go at it fairly hard, though maybe not to the extent you are describing sensei8. Sparring is where we test ourselves and each other and I wouldn't feel satisfied just going through the motions.
However when we are practising bunkai drills, for example, it's against resistance but a kind of simulated resistance. I'm sure that aligns with the practices of most dojos.
In the interest of safety we don't head butt, punch to break ribs etc or put on locks with a ferocity that could accidentally injure someone.
My training partner sometimes uses this, along with knowing what the drill entails, to put up an unrealistic resistance which I feel doesn't contribute to our martial training.

Monday evening's training prompted my post. Sensei asked my friend to establish a lapel grip to which he would escape and we would each go off and practise. My friend's grip was a kind of overhand grip to which I remarked I was surprised sensei didn't just put him in an armbar as he put himself half way there to begin with. My friend asked me to demonstrate what I meant and proceeded to tense up and put all his strength into resisting the arm bar.
I gave a cheeky dig to the ribs and got the armbar on but what was meant to be a light hearted, throw away remark became an obstacle to be overcome.

I didn't make a big deal of it. Whiners get short thrift in our dojo also and it wasn't really a big deal but I guess it's a growing frustration.

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

If you are practicing Bunkai drills then switch if he is ready and waiting. I assume that you have several applications that fit a given scenario like we do. If not use a distraction technique or wait until he is no longer rooted and apply the technique.

Having said this, and like Sensei8, I feel that the more resistance the better.

If you think in terms of a real conflict, the opponent is resisting even more so than in the Dojo because the stakes are higher. The closer you can get to real world, the better.

Its great to apply a technique several times to a willing opponent (uke) so you can get the feel of the techniques involved and understand how to properly apply them but after this is accomplished the only way you will ever know how it really works is to do it against a none compliant opponent.

Small, big, short or tall doesn't matter. Think the taller man has an advantage? Get lower and his own body weight will topple him.

Do not look at this as a problem but an opportunity to see what really works for you. Through this you will also learn to execute techniques in your way to benefit your size.

Not every student is the same and as such their technique will differ. This is an opportunity to find your way.

On the other hand you do your friend no favors by being a compliant uke. It gives an unrealistic sense of ability when it's not him but you making things work. Resistance in these drills teaches more than compliance ever will. You'll be hard pressed to find a compliant thug on the streets so why train that way?

I understand what your saying. I'm just giving you another way to approach the situation.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

mushybees · Orange Belt

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your perspective on it as long time practitioners of the MA.
I think a chat is overdue and a mutual agreed system of learning technique and then testing against resistance is needed. That way everyone is happy.

Dani_001 · Orange Belt

What everyone said ^^^

I learnt from this too. Thanks. I am looking at a life partner also in my class. There are two in particular, and a third.

One is green belt, and the other is brown. We go fairly hard to execute the techniques correctly, with much control. Sometimes they make class and sometimes they don't

Then there is a senior-junior (under the age of eighteen) that is orange belt as me, he is regular with his classes. He is reasonably good and we learn from each other, he lacks confidence but I always try to bring the best out of him. I don't mind taking him as a partner, but the problem with most students his age is that once university years/ college/ technikon years start kicking in with responsibilities, most students his age leave the dojo for a long time.

Someone's signature on the forum states: "Sweep the leg, no Mercy." This is exactly the same mindset we should have even with our friends/ training partners. I taught the orange belt senior-junior last night in the fourth bunkai of Gekisai Dai Ni that this applies. I am quite strong (due to powerlifting and weight training) and quite grounded in my footwork so his first attempts were futile, apart from his lacking confidence. Then I built him up nicely and gave him a pep talk. After that, he executed the bunkai correctly and took me down lightning fast and I made him practice all night. He thanked me and told me that that was the best class he ever had.

I will keep faith in him, and I will continue to build on that relationship.
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Uphold the Budo spirit and nothing will overcome you!

Kusotare · Purple Belt

The roll of 'uke' as a training partner should be functional.

Being deliberately obstructive or obstinate, doesn't fulfil that role, however too much compliance does no favours either.

How much compliance (going easy on) does depend on the experience of the students involved and what type of pair work they are doing.

When teaching the paired kata of Wado-ryu for example (Kihon Kumite, Idori etc.), we start by explaining the roll of 'Tori' (the one who accepts the initial attack and converts) and 'Uke' (the one who receives the counter). In most traditional dojo, the roll of uke is usually played by the teacher or more senior student.

It is his or her job to gradually increase the level of intensity / realism within the exchange, until it becomes as life like as possible.

When tori is suitably proficient, we actively encourage uke's to look for 'gaps' and weaknesses. The odd bop on the nose does wonders for ones concentration.

When it comes to 'being thrown' - initially the more senior students will make the throws seem easier by being more compliant (so the junior student can learn correct form) - again he or she will gradually increase the level of intensity required to make the throws realistic. (this is easier said than done and perhaps why, when partners have equal amounts of skill, this leads to miscommunication).

Kata-geiko (the practice of paired kata) - is a discipline in its own right, but when done properly with equal importance applied to both attacker and defender (in terms of correct approach) - it has great value.

At its highest level this works toward 'kobo-ittai' or the concept of attack and defence being the same thing.

K.
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Usque ad mortem bibendum!

Dani_001 · Orange Belt

Kata-geiko is the breath of traditional karate. Very important.
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Uphold the Budo spirit and nothing will overcome you!

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