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Shorinryu Sensei
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 2045
Location: Kalispell, Montana
Styles: Shorinryu Matsumura Kenpo (Seito/Orthodox) Karate and Kobudo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:53 am    Post subject: 3 Types of Sparring in the Dojo. Reply with quote

I know a lot of people are down on "point sparring", but I think it has it's place in the dojo as a training aid, along with medium and full contact (almost anything goes) sparring.

Here's my rational:

Point/light contact sparring: This type of sparring teaches you speed, timing and accuracy. You learn to look for openings in your opponents defense, consider what technique would be employed to attack that opening fast, effectively and accurately. Ther only way you can score a pouint in this type of sparring is with a full power, controlled technique that is "pulled" short of contact, or only with light contact to the head, medium to the body. The only protection we use is a required groin cup (yes, the groin is always a target) for men, and hand pads if you chose, but not required. Sure, it's basically a game of tag, but you learn speed and accuracy with this type of sparring.

Medium Contact sparring: With this type of sparring, medium contact is allowed to all areas of the body, plus take downs. Again, speed and accuracy are emphasised, but more contact is allowed between the participants. Foam/leather gloves are worn on hands, but we've never gotten into foot or head gear. In this system, we do not (cardinal rule) head kick EVER. Good way to get neutered.

Full Contact Sparring: We use Okinawan bogu gear which resembles a kendo mask (different kind of grill in the front), chest pad and gloves. Full contact to the head/torso is allowed and you have to "rock" your opponent to be considered a good, solid technique. If any of you have ever worn this type of gear, you know that a good, solid hit to the head will still make you see a few stars. The advantage of this type of sparring is that you still need speed and accuracy, but you're getting the feeling of actually hitting somebody for real, plus you have to learn to not get hit yourself!

As I said, I believe all 3 types of sparing in the dojo are needed, as they teach different things to the students. Using only light point sparring isn't good, but neither is exclusively full contact. I feel a mixture of all 3 types is necessary for a well rounded martial artist.
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stl_karateka
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 645
Location: O'fallon IL
Styles: Shorin Ryu & Isshin Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally agree!
We do a lot of point sparring for the reasons you mentioned above, but we also do continous medium contact sparring...this is where we incorporate our takedowns and self-defense, holds, and getting out of said holds. Sometimes we'll even do 2 on 1. Newsflash --- if you ever have to defend yourself there is a good chance it will be against more than ONE person!!!
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SBN Doug
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Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 3767
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Kuk Sool Won

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From an instructor's point of view, point sparring is also beneficial for those that have not done much, if any, fighting in their lives. It gets them used to having punches and kicks thrown at them, without worrying tooooo much about how badly it's going to hurt.
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karatekid1975
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Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 4588
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: Tang Soo Do/TKD/jujitsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post, Shorinryu Sensei. I used to do point sparring (light contact, take-downs, hand contact to the head, ect) in TSD.

In TKD (well, what the rules say it SUPPOSED to be) is full contact (light or no contact with beginners). My dojang usually puts a "twist" on things, which can be a lot of fun. Like you said, all types of sparring is beneficial in its own way.

My dojang also does stand-up grappling, and ground grappling as well as ground sparring (the same as regular sparring except you are on the ground ... same rules). This can be beneficial as well.
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delta1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good discussion, and I agree with all that has been said.

There is another basic type of sparing- SLOW SPARING, where you both move at half or three quarter speed. This allows you to work more on technique. It also lets you better see attacks and openings developing, and that information is commited to subconsious memory. It will vastly improve your full speed sparing. There is a tendency to speed up, and not many of your attacks will get through (no one is going to let you hit them in slow motion!). But that is ok- this is training, not competition.

There are a LOT of variations on all these basic types. Did you want to get into that, or just stick with the reasons/advantages of sparing?

The biggest advantages I see to sparing in general is:
The only way to learn to fight, is to fight.
The only way you'll know what works for you, and what needs more work, is to put it to the test.
It can also teach humility, but I'm not allways sure that is an advantage.
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stl_karateka
Brown Belt
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Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 645
Location: O'fallon IL
Styles: Shorin Ryu & Isshin Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slow sparring --- we do that too without really putting it in the curriculum -- good point delta!

For example if I am working with a lower ranked student on a night I know we are going to spar, or before or after class I'll throw a backfist slow over-emphasizing my open ribs trying to get them used to throwing a reverse punch....or slowly throw a spin kick to get them to work timing moving in and out.....

I never thought of it as slow sparring, but I guess that is exactly what it is.

We also do HEAVY BAG KUMITE TECHNIQUES --- this is more to work your own positioning/form when executing a move since you aren't doing it on a moving target.
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JerryLove
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Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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Location: Tampa, FL, US

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copying from myself:

Light Contact:
Light contact sparring is where one spars at full speed but "pulls the punch", that is to say that control is exercised to avoid putting force into the target. This is pretty common in Japanese arts.

Advantages include:
The ability to use a wide array of techniques in practice without injuring your partner.
The ability to move at speed and react to someone moving at speed.

Disadvantages include:
The limiting of many techniques which cannot, by nature, be pulled.
A limit on what and how much resistance an opponent can offer.
The lack of an understanding of hitting and being hit.
The training of the bad habit "pull the punch" (commiting the wrong actions to muscle memory"

Limited Rules
Common in the grapplig arts, this strategy allows opponents to go at near-full speed and with power by severely limiting dangerous techniques and relying on a level of control to "stop" when injury is about to occur.

Advantages include:
The ability to work at near combat levels with resisting opponents.
A gravity dynamic (IE how hard it is to stay up or escape) very true-to life.
A realistic sense of trying to apply something to someone who doesn't want it applied.
The ability to fight in realistic attire.

Disadvantages include:
The restriction of certain techniques (anything from fish-hooks to knee kicks).
The neccessairy de-emphasis of other common techniques (striking).
The likely reliance on some level of padding (I've yet to see this done on standard hardwood or concrete floors)

Pad up and go
In this strategy, the combatitants attempt to armor their more vunerable areas to allow a higher level of striking. Otherwise, it's very similar to Light contact

Advantages Include:
Ability to work at speed and reasonably power against resisting opponent.
Less bad habit of pulling than light contact.

Disadvantages include:
Unrealistic abilities and inabilities cause by padding.
Unrealistic understandings of damage inflicted and recieved due to padding.
A limitation of availiable techniques similar to [i]Light Contact[/b] due to teh limitations of padding.

Slow motion sparring
Slow motion sparring, done most often in Chinese arts, relies on a control of speed. Combatatiants fight, but at a snails pace.

Advantages include:
An almost unlimited availability of techniques.
The ability to work against a resisting opponent.
The ability to "think while fighting" to improve on mistakes.
The ability to perform a technique as you would in a fight.

Disadvantages include:
A lack of exposure to the timing and effect of speed.
A lower "fear coctail" level than other sparring methods.
An unrealistic understanding of one's ability to respond to sudden changes.
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[CT]pizzaboy
Green Belt
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Joined: 05 Aug 2001
Posts: 370
Location: Orlando, FL
Styles: blue-belt taekwondo/green belt Yoshukai

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one mention on-step sparring(mainly for beginners), which incorparates the newly learned punches and kicks, blocking and distance.
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JerryLove
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Joined: 19 Sep 2002
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Location: Tampa, FL, US

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because that's a drill.. it's not really sparring.
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Goju1
Blue Belt
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Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 266
Location: Coronado CA
Styles: IOGKF Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry - don't see any 'point' to point sparring. has nothing to do with basics or kumite and does not prepare one for a real fight, actually causes harm to ones ability to perform well in a real situaution. Can you see the old masters of 100 years ago doing point sparring??? I didn't think so .....
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