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Sasori_Te
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Near Akron Ohio
Styles: Kempo and Kobudo
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 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Warlock that's not a bad idea either. That's also something you could run in conjunction with a belt system if you just love it too much to get rid of it.
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TheDevilAside
Red Belt
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 832
Location: Colorado, USA
Styles: American Kenpo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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I wish people would just be more honest with themselves when they join a martial art. Or the instructors would be more honest, for that matter.
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"If you're going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill |
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AndrewGreen
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 905
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Styles: Crazy Penguin Ninjitsu
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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So we take a pile of poo.
Rearrange it
and claim it is no longer poo?
If you don't like belts, don't use belts. I don't and it works great!
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Andrew Green
http://innovativema.ca - All the top martial arts news!
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Agree with AndrewGreen.
"belts are the devil!"
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I've studied under both a belt rank system and no rank till black system. Both have pros and cons, and I really don't have a preference.
While I've never studied under this system, it seems to me that a phase system would be best. It takes the good in both, without the bad. You get the advancement incentive of the belt system, without it being a continual overrideing goal- the just learn what you have to for the test and get that better color mentality. The class can also be divided into groups of similar abilities, or combined as you wish.
Whatever system you choose, it is more up to the student and the instructor as to how well it works.
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:26 am Post subject: |
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martial arts is supposed to be about yourself.
it is supposed to be about you as an individual and about you as a member of a community.
it isn't about comparing yourself with other people.
it isn't about being better than other people.
it isn't about how long you have spent learning the art.
it isn't about your 'grade' in your martial art.
it is about you as a person and what you have learnt, what you are learning and what you will learn in the future.
i thin the problem is that people are looking at the actual belt as the actual award.
they are 'concerntraing on the finger' so to speak...
but alas this is where the problem lies.
you cannot see ability but you can see belts.
you cannot judge ability but you can test their knowledge.
the belt system means good but it is not sufficient for the task it attempts to handle.
it is widely accepted that even within a group of the same belt levels, you are going to have a large range of people with different abilities.
you can take two people of the same belt level and they can be a world apart in ability.
if you are going to have a grading/ranking system then you have to enforce it properly and be absolutely just and harsh with how you 'award' those grades.
after all, you don't want anyone of supposed higher ability to be beat by a lower ability guy.
i guess what it boils down to is how do you decide that this guy is this level and that guy is that level.
you can have a new guy who has previous martial art experience and is a natural fighter (good timing, good execution) and can hold himslef against people of 'higher grade' with his basic knowledge of your style.
then
you have the 'long timer' who has vast knowledge but is at the same 'fighting level' as the new guy.
how are you going to decide who is what grade as they fight the same, so to speak...(?)
where ever there is a physical symbol that is used to represent someone's ability, there is going to be dispute.
it isn't really the belt system that is the problem, rather it is what people have done to the belt system.
they charge for you to take a grading and if you fail, they charge you for the belt if you pass.
this is where a lot of the scandel comes from.
there is incentive for people to fail you when you take a grading (mucho dinero....).
by all means use a belt system.
just be honest.
i've never been part of a school where a belt system is used.
we know who has been learning longer and who is new.
we know who is good at this and who is good at that.
we know who is the better fighter and who is the better teacher.
we also know that best fighter and the best teacher and the one who has been learning longest ISN'T always going to be the same person.
you have just to educate people on the significance or insignificance of the belt.
the system is a dead thing, it has no anima.
it is a thing that people use and abuse.
the problem is not with the system.
the problem is with the people.
educate the people and the system will work.
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Drunk Monk, good post! You explain very well some of the things I was talking about in my post.
| Drunken Monkey wrote: |
i guess what it boils down to is how do you decide that this guy is this level and that guy is that level.
you can have a new guy who has previous martial art experience and is a natural fighter (good timing, good execution) and can hold himslef against people of 'higher grade' with his basic knowledge of your style.
then
you have the 'long timer' who has vast knowledge but is at the same 'fighting level' as the new guy. how are you going to decide who is what grade as they fight the same, so to speak...(?) |
That is another reason I like the phase idea. No test, you are either ready for (able to handle) the next level, or you aren't. This assesment is as much subjective as it is objective, and in my view the student should be involved in this decission. This gives the student some responsibility for his own training and self evaluation. And, if the student moves up and it becomes obviouse he can't handle the new level, either the material or the intensity, he could be moved back down without the stigma of a demotion.
Parting thoughts:
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| Ed Parker said "Stripes show, doesn't mean you know." |
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| Frank Trejo, when asked about his black belt, said "The (dang) thing can't even stand up by itself." |
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Iron Arahat
Red Belt
Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 846
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I personally do not believe in the belt system whatsoever. The only place it may be marginally practicle is to give an outside observer and idea of the skill level of the wearer. The other is a a marketing tool, and as a carrot to dangle in front of students.
Many people become arrogant and egotistical when the recieve their black belt. Also this practice of giving the belt to children is really silly, this "world's youngest black belt" thing you read every year it seems now.
I have seen many black belts in my life that you wonder, "what is the standard" Including those who have stepped into my school, and boast they are black belts, don't follow the program, becaus ethey know all. (Some who learn that this is not the case).
Train that is all you should do, train hard, and train for yourself not the recognition of others. Almost 20 years now I have trained, and still no black belt.
My advice train for yourself, if you are in a rank system, take pride in your accomplishments, but remember that a black belt is just that a belt. Be proud of the accomplishments for what they are, not the token.
Just as a joke I always say when someone asks me if I have a blak belt. I always say, "Yeah I've had one for years, but I think next time I'll buy the brown one at Walmart."
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Sasori_Te
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Near Akron Ohio
Styles: Kempo and Kobudo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Something just occurred to me. Neither the belt or phase system of it's own accord takes into account special needs students. Some students may have disabilities or conditions that won't allow them to perform all requirements in the same way that someone in perfect health may be able to. We are not all created equal as much as we might all like to think we are. Some folks are going to require some modification of the ranking requirements (if you decide to use a rank system of any sort). This doesn't mean that they are substandard martial artists. It just means that they may not be able to perform certain techniques at all, or as well as the rest of the class. They may be head and shoulders above the whole clss in other areas. How would you handle this in a belt or phase system that could be seen as "fair and unbiased" to all involved?
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Sasori_Te wrote: |
Neither the belt or phase system of it's own accord takes into account special needs students....disabilities or conditions that won't allow them to perform all requirements in the same way...not all created equal...may not be able to perform certain techniques at all, or as well as the rest of the class. ...
How would you handle this in a belt or phase system that could be seen as "fair and unbiased" to all involved? |
This is handled all the time by most systems now. TKD (at least what I've seen) doesn't require everyone to do leaping kicks or head kicks. Some people just never will be that flexable. American Kenpo was designed to be adapted to the individual, and I know of many people with minor disabilities, and have heard of some with major disabilities, who do well with AK. FMA's are so adaptable they almost go without mentioning. Even Karate, which tends to be very rigid, has disabled practitioners who've successfully altered their style to suit them.
Grading, as I said before, is as much subjective as it is objective. It is easy to make allowances in one area or demand more in another. And anyone who would require a person with a bad leg to kick like everyone else has not got the right attitude to be in a martial arts class in the first place. Who in their right mind would hold Bill Wallace back because he can't kick the same with both legs? Who isn't inspired by the stories of some on this forum who've overcome, in at least one case, severe handicaps? You don't have to coddle those with disabilities. You work with them to overcome the problems, and both instructor and all the students learn more about their art than if they just continued going through the motions.
It isn't the system that hinders us from excelling in any way. It is our hidebound dedication to a system rather to the art and each other, a legalistic attitude that says 'this is what's required and if you can't do it that way you can't advance', that holds us and others back. I doubt you are that way, so this is not an indictment. In fact, I don't see a lot of that here on this forum at all. But it is out there, and in my view it is destructive both to individuals and the arts. It's also an attitude that gets me riled (who'd have guessed?).
My opinion. Any one else need the soap box?
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on the post.
