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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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 Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I have nothing against physical conditioning. In fact I see it as essential. But we're in the 21st century. We know things now that we're not known 100+ years ago.
In any case, breaking isn't conditioning. |
Breaking is conditioning in a way. Looking at x-rays of people who routinely break’s hands (as an example), you’ll see far thicker areas of compact bone (the outer, non-marrow area) than most other people. Similar to people who hit makiwara, Thai boxers who condition their shins, etc.
What happens is the person is micro fracturing their bones. When those heal, the body lays down extra bone to prevent further damage. No different than micro tears in muscle during strength training.
How desirable or functional that is can be debated; the physiological response can’t. |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I have nothing against physical conditioning. In fact I see it as essential. But we're in the 21st century. We know things now that we're not known 100+ years ago.
In any case, breaking isn't conditioning. |
Breaking is conditioning in a way. Looking at x-rays of people who routinely break’s hands (as an example), you’ll see far thicker areas of compact bone (the outer, non-marrow area) than most other people. Similar to people who hit makiwara, Thai boxers who condition their shins, etc.
What happens is the person is micro fracturing their bones. When those heal, the body lays down extra bone to prevent further damage. No different than micro tears in muscle during strength training.
How desirable or functional that is can be debated; the physiological response can’t. |
I agree with what you are saying. But there is a problem.
Any repetitive stress to the bone will increase bone density. That's well and truly backed by scientific study. No problem there.
But that same mechanism that increases bone density can also stimulate unwanted bone growth, in the form of joint deformity leading potentially to arthritis. This might be in a minority of cases but it is a risk.
Of course that same risk exists with any form of conditioning. But the problem with breaking is about control. When you hit a bag or a pad, you can build up gradually, ensuring that you have the control and precision there before gradually increasing the power. With breaking, you get one shot. It has to be right first time. You have to comit 100% to the strike right from the off.
Makawari is somewhat different. That's just a primitive DIY alternative to the heavy bag. You can gradually build up with it.
There is nothing magical or ceremonial about old training tools. It's just what they had.
As I said before, I'm not against breaking for those that want to do it. But I see it as pointless. I'd rather prove my martial arts personal development by demonstrating the techniques in a controlled way against a resisting but consenting opponent. Not a fight. But a demonstration of ability. If I can force a man my own size to the ground when he is trying to remain standing, I think that proves more than kicking a stationary inanimate object.
Last edited by OneKickWonder on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Tool!! We're debating MA tools!! Why?? Opinions are like shores...every island has one. If said tool helps improve the betterment of the MAist, then I've no right to criticize them, just because I don't agree with their process of said tool(s).
To each their own!! For that to mean something, then I have to allow them to exercise their own freely. Even when the person is my own student.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Tool!! We're debating MA tools!! Why?? Opinions are like shores...every island has one. If said tool helps improve the betterment of the MAist, then I've no right to criticize them, just because I don't agree with their process of said tool(s).
To each their own!! For that to mean something, then I have to allow them to exercise their own freely. Even when the person is my own student.
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As I've already said, I'm not criticising anyone who likes breaking. And you and I seem to be agreeing on many points.
But I shared my opinion in good faith, not to ruin anybody's fun, but to stimulate thought. If after reading my comments someone thinks for a moment then dismisses it, fine. At least they considered it rather than blindly doing what they've always done without question.
When we go to a martial arts class, as we start slowly destroying our knees through bad posture and an instructor corrects us, do we say no, this is how I've always done it, or do we think maybe it's worth considering this?
I haven't simply said breaking is silly or anything like that. I've offered sound reasons for my thinking. As martial artists, are we not encouraged to keep an open mind?
Some folks give solid reasons why they support breaking. I give reasons why I don't. So far I can only see one post dismissing the whole notion of debate. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| OneKickWonder wrote: |
I have nothing against physical conditioning. In fact I see it as essential. But we're in the 21st century. We know things now that we're not known 100+ years ago.
In any case, breaking isn't conditioning. |
Breaking is conditioning in a way. Looking at x-rays of people who routinely break’s hands (as an example), you’ll see far thicker areas of compact bone (the outer, non-marrow area) than most other people. Similar to people who hit makiwara, Thai boxers who condition their shins, etc.
What happens is the person is micro fracturing their bones. When those heal, the body lays down extra bone to prevent further damage. No different than micro tears in muscle during strength training.
How desirable or functional that is can be debated; the physiological response can’t. |
I agree with what you are saying. But there is a problem.
Any repetitive stress to the bone will increase bone density. That's well and truly backed by scientific study. No problem there.
But that same mechanism that increases bone density can also stimulate unwanted bone growth, in the form of joint deformity leading potentially to arthritis. This might be in a minority of cases but it is a risk.
Of course that same risk exists with any form of conditioning. But the problem with breaking is about control. When you hit a bag or a pad, you can build up gradually, ensuring that you have the control and precision there before gradually increasing the power. With breaking, you get one shot. It has to be right first time. You have to comit 100% to the strike right from the off.
Makawari is somewhat different. That's just a primitive DIY alternative to the heavy bag. You can gradually build up with it.
There is nothing magical or ceremonial about old training tools. It's just what they had.
As I said before, I'm not against breaking for those that want to do it. But I see it as pointless. I'd rather prove my martial arts personal development by demonstrating the techniques in a controlled way against a resisting but consenting opponent. Not a fight. But a demonstration of ability. If I can force a man my own size to the ground when he is trying to remain standing, I think that proves more than kicking a stationary inanimate object. |
As far as conditioning goes and risk of arthritis - It depends how you are conditioning your weapon. If you start out striking as hard as you can and break bones then you are at a higher risk than those that gradually build up to full force.
I have been faithfully using a Makiwara for 30+ years and have experienced no arthritic issues in my hands, fingers, toes, feet or elbows. I really feel it has everything to do with a good teacher that understands the process teaching their students the correct way. Having knuckles 3 times their normal size does not come from an "over time or gradual" process. It's from not conditioning properly.
As far as old tools goes... I am a proponent of using anything that helps me improve. Some newer "tools" are obviously better at achieving the results a student is looking for in a faster time period. However some of the "old tools" as you say can not be replaced as they serve a very specific purpose.
As far as Tameshiwari is concerned... I could care less either way. Take it or leave it. To me it's a test (personal) of ones power and conditioning. To others it's an ego boost and a "look at what I can do" type of thing.
Your right that it proves nothing as opposed to actually testing your skills against a non-cooperative opponent. However it has it's purpose.
If your are testing yourself by means of breaking boards and you are using non-kiln dried hardwoods, this is a test that will give the practitioner good useful feed back. Unfortunately all too often those that put on demonstrations for the purposes of impressing others use very dry wood that would break under a fingers pressure much less an actual strike. Does this prove anything other than to test your focus, perseverance, proper body mechanics, power and maybe a boost to your own confidence? No. But it does serve a purpose for the one executing the break and as you said it is a "tool" that teaches us. It gives immediate feed back that we can learn from.
Old tools, new tools, it's all the pursuit of improving oneself in their chosen art. Do it, don't do it, it's up to you as this is a personal journey.
As they say "to each their own".
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| OneKickWonder wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Tool!! We're debating MA tools!! Why?? Opinions are like shores...every island has one. If said tool helps improve the betterment of the MAist, then I've no right to criticize them, just because I don't agree with their process of said tool(s).
To each their own!! For that to mean something, then I have to allow them to exercise their own freely. Even when the person is my own student.
|
As I've already said, I'm not criticising anyone who likes breaking. And you and I seem to be agreeing on many points.
But I shared my opinion in good faith, not to ruin anybody's fun, but to stimulate thought. If after reading my comments someone thinks for a moment then dismisses it, fine. At least they considered it rather than blindly doing what they've always done without question.
When we go to a martial arts class, as we start slowly destroying our knees through bad posture and an instructor corrects us, do we say no, this is how I've always done it, or do we think maybe it's worth considering this?
I haven't simply said breaking is silly or anything like that. I've offered sound reasons for my thinking. As martial artists, are we not encouraged to keep an open mind?
Some folks give solid reasons why they support breaking. I give reasons why I don't. So far I can only see one post dismissing the whole notion of debate. |
Solid post!!
I was speaking about myself across the board, and not to any KF member. If the appearance is that I was speaking to someone, directly/indirectly, then I apologize wholeheartedly!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just an update...
I found breaking bats on Chokesports.com. The description states they break with about 1/3 the effort as a real bat.
The bad news is......
49.95 a piece.
I think that is expensive for something that is firewood after 1 use.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LLLEARNER wrote: |
Just an update...
I found breaking bats on Chokesports.com. The description states they break with about 1/3 the effort as a real bat.
The bad news is......
49.95 a piece.
I think that is expensive for something that is firewood after 1 use. |
$50 for a one time use is crazy. Now I'm wondering how many are bought each year? Ridiculous!
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: |
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LOL! Ouch... I'm also wondering if these things actually sell!
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
| LOL! Ouch... I'm also wondering if these things actually sell! |
My guess is people practice with cheap pine or even balsa, then use the realistic looking ones for public demos and everyone will applaud and go home thoroughly impressed. |
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on the post.
