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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14268
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:59 am    Post subject: Are Teaching Dan Ranks Politically Correct? Reply with quote

*Sandan (3rd Dan):
Once a student has earned Sandan, that student has seen and practiced the whole teaching syllaabus. In the case of Karate, for example, a Sandan should know the three K's well enough to teach them effectively to students up to Shodan (1st Dan).

*Yondan (4th Dan):
Often, Nidan (2nd Dan) and Sandan students are actually the best teachers in the style because they can still remember what it was like to be a beginner, and they are still diligent about teaching the syllabus unchanged. Also, if a student is expected to assume the role of the CI by Sandan, then they had better have pretty extensive practice at it prior to that time. Therefore, students should be getting progressively more teaching responsibilities starting at about Sankyu (1st Brown), and Sandans may have been teaching long enough to have Shodan students.

*Godan (5th Dan):
At this level, one should have been teaching long enough to have produced at least one student of Sandan level. If one wishes to train/teach/advance beyond Godan, then at such time, a Nanadan/Shichidan (7th Dan) should have at least one Godan student, and a Kudan (9th Dan) should have at least one Nanadan/Shichidan student.

Is this premise politically correct, in your opinion, enough to open up a dojo/dojang/school of the MA?



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Lupin1
KF Sempai
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1603
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think promotions should be based on teaching ability. It may just be because I'm a teacher, but I think teaching's just one of those things that you've either got it or you don't. You can have someone who's an amazing practitioner but is a horrible teacher. You can also have people who aren't that great themselves but just have the gift for guiding and nurturing others. I think one's personal advancement and one's ability to teach should be separate.
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Nidan Melbourne
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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people might be a good karateka but they may not be a good teacher.

In terms of teaching Dan Grades, the teacher should be experienced in knowing the syllabus and be able to teach the art effectively. My sensei is a sandan and he has 2 nidans and several shodans. and he is also teaching a few sandans privately to help them prepare for their yondan grading
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SteyrAUG
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Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 111


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every school has different criteria and I don't think a "one size fits all" example would work best for every style.

But as a general rule all technical movements have been satisfied by 5th dan. With rare exceptions there are no advanced techniques or kata required to move from 7th to 9th dan.

Pretty much everything after 5th dan is a politically promotion. If you wrote one of the first books in English about your style, if you were going to oversee one of the first dojo established in a new country or anything like that you will likely be promoted to a higher grade.

Other than that it's mostly just a promotion to bishop then cardinal and seeing who will one day be the next pope of the system.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
I don't think promotions should be based on teaching ability. It may just be because I'm a teacher, but I think teaching's just one of those things that you've either got it or you don't. You can have someone who's an amazing practitioner but is a horrible teacher. You can also have people who aren't that great themselves but just have the gift for guiding and nurturing others. I think one's personal advancement and one's ability to teach should be separate.

To the bold type above...

I concur wholeheartedly. My OP is more of speaking about one's basic teaching requirements AFTER said promotion has been earned.



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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14268
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
Some people might be a good karateka but they may not be a good teacher.

In terms of teaching Dan Grades, the teacher should be experienced in knowing the syllabus and be able to teach the art effectively. My sensei is a sandan and he has 2 nidans and several shodans. and he is also teaching a few sandans privately to help them prepare for their yondan grading

To the bold type above...

Absolutely!! Not all BB can teach, nor should they be.



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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14268
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteyrAUG wrote:
Every school has different criteria and I don't think a "one size fits all" example would work best for every style.

But as a general rule all technical movements have been satisfied by 5th dan. With rare exceptions there are no advanced techniques or kata required to move from 7th to 9th dan.

Pretty much everything after 5th dan is a politically promotion. If you wrote one of the first books in English about your style, if you were going to oversee one of the first dojo established in a new country or anything like that you will likely be promoted to a higher grade.

Other than that it's mostly just a promotion to bishop then cardinal and seeing who will one day be the next pope of the system.

Solid post!!

To the first bold type above...

My OP was a general overview and not style specific at all. Can't have a cookie cut that will fit any style outside of ones own and/or governing body.

To the second bold type above...

Very true. By Godan, that's about it. However, the style I practice must be the rare occasion that you speak about because there are "advanced" techniques for Nanadan and Hachidan.

To the third bold type above...

In the style I practice ALL ranks up to Hachidan ARE not politically awarded; must test for them all.

Isn't the world of MA ranks...well...strange?!



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SteyrAUG
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Joined: 25 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:


Isn't the world of MA ranks...well...strange?!




Depends how much stock you put in them.

I have seen 7th and 8th dans in their early 20s that I'm not certain I would give shodan grades to. I also know guys in their 50s and 60s that know more than 95% of the other martial artists I know and they are often wearing only a 5th dan grade.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteyrAUG wrote:
sensei8 wrote:


Isn't the world of MA ranks...well...strange?!




Depends how much stock you put in them.

I have seen 7th and 8th dans in their early 20s that I'm not certain I would give shodan grades to. I also know guys in their 50s and 60s that know more than 95% of the other martial artists I know and they are often wearing only a 5th dan grade.

Absolutely!! All ranks should respect said given context; nothing less and nothing more.



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Nidan Melbourne
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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2202
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
Some people might be a good karateka but they may not be a good teacher.

In terms of teaching Dan Grades, the teacher should be experienced in knowing the syllabus and be able to teach the art effectively. My sensei is a sandan and he has 2 nidans and several shodans. and he is also teaching a few sandans privately to help them prepare for their yondan grading

To the bold type above...

Absolutely!! Not all BB can teach, nor should they be.




We have a few shodan-ho's (provisional Black Belts) and a few 1st Kyu's that should not teach at all for a few factors.
1) they have a lack of patience and empathy.
2) Lack of maturity
3) can't perform the basics effectively nor explain them well
4) massive ego's
5) generally unpleasant (they don't care about what everyone is doing)
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