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mal103
Purple Belt
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559
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 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: Black belt standard |
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Okay, you get your bb and learn there are another load of grades that get further apart and most won't or shouldn't get to be a high ranking dan grade. You also realise that the standards are all different and some still can't fight their way out of a paper bag or teach, some get given rank for political reasons and others grade themselves or get it after putting in lots of years.
I've come to realise that unless you are part of a large (good) organisation then your standard can vary a great deal. From my personal findings I have trained alongside around 60 odd different black belts and am confident I have a good grasp on the average standard. Locally I have trained with a below average Sensei, seen a very poor Sensei and trained under a few very good Sensei.
I believe that you can line up several students of the same belt/kyu grade from different clubs but have very different standards, I have therefore come to believe that a Black belt is a personal statement from one person (or club) to the student. Some will have to go through hours of training and testing to achieve this but others will get it handed to them on a plate.
I think that a good student will become a good Black belt and hopefully get graded around the same time, they will be ready to move on with their training and have the right attitude, speed and power. They will have no problem turning up at any dojo around the world and fitting in at the top end.
For anyone else that gets graded too early then it's the opposite. Unfortunately the student will know no difference and accept the grade but I suspect they are due for a shock if they ever try another dojo or want to expand on their training.
Last edited by mal103 on Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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andym
Green Belt
Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 487
Styles: Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Those are very good sentiments mal103, and I agree. There is also the other fly in the ointment. There are some excellent students, who work hard and get their black belts , and stop ! That's it, they have achieved the black belt and that's it, they don't have to train ever again - so sad to my mind.
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If you believe in an ideal. You don't own it ; it owns you. |
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Andy, I've seen this happen quite a few times; "I'm a black belt! Now I've finished!" The Shodan in my view is a mark of finishing the beginner course.
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Look to the far mountain and see all. |
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mal103
Purple Belt
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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It's an apprenticeship, this is where people end up saying that MA doesn't work but it's because they haven't done it long enough or effectively.
It's painful to see someone get a Shodan when they are not ready, had a lesser grading or have broken all of the standard times to get it, especially when you did it at a certain standard.
Proof will be on the floor if they ever stray into a good dojo. |
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Archimoto
Purple Belt
Joined: 12 Apr 2014
Posts: 548
Styles: JKD / Muay Thai / TKD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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These are common concerns but the pursuit of martial art is so subjective that it's paramount in my opinion to focus on yourself and only yourself. Your journey is yours alone, it's narrative is unique to you and it's significance can only be appreciated fully by you. Of course you'll meet people along the way, instructors, classmates, and perhaps students, and narratives will intertwine and co-mingle but ultimately the real meaning of your narrative, or even the value of your belt for instance, will only be known by you.
I think you've arrived at a wonderful conclusion ! 
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To quote the great Bob Marley: "LOVE IS MY RELIGION" |
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Melau
Yellow Belt
Joined: 02 Jan 2014
Posts: 63
Location: Netherlands
Styles: Wado-Ryu, Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Solid statements and very recognizable. I come from a place where graduation to BB and higher is done by a central, national organization. Being naive, I thought this was common practise and regarded a BB to have obtained a certain amount of skill and mastery both physically and mentally that is required for obtaining BB at mentioned national organization.
As sad as it is, this is often not the case. Which makes it a challenge to train with an unknown BB, for you cannot be sure they are one a certain level of skill, and will often have an incorrect idea of their own skills 'just because they are BB'.
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"The ultimate aim of the art of karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the characters of its participants."
Gichin Funakoshi |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2359
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Melau wrote: |
Solid statements and very recognizable. I come from a place where graduation to BB and higher is done by a central, national organization. Being naive, I thought this was common practise and regarded a BB to have obtained a certain amount of skill and mastery both physically and mentally that is required for obtaining BB at mentioned national organization.
As sad as it is, this is often not the case. Which makes it a challenge to train with an unknown BB, for you cannot be sure they are one a certain level of skill, and will often have an incorrect idea of their own skills 'just because they are BB'. |
Often it is hard to have all schools have a central organisation saying "yes you are worthy of having a BB" because of all the variations of kata that each school may do. Along with the curriculum is difficult.
Organisations like the JKA (Japanese Karate Association) that are a Shotokan Organisation can have a national requirement for the standard of black belt that every karateka in their association has to strive for.
Although National Organisations like the Australian Karate Federation do run gradings irregardless of school and style but they are normally just for dan grades. Plus these are rather expensive to hold and don't come about all that often due to needing a 'master' (i hate using that word) from each of the 4 major styles (Goju, Shotokan, Wado, Shito-ryu) in the country to be there watching.
So it isn't common practice. |
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devil dog
Orange Belt
Joined: 07 Dec 2013
Posts: 153
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Kobudo Judo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, very insightful thoughts.
Unfortunately this is not uncommon. I have seen teachers that have no business teaching and students that should be demoted back 4 grades or more due to their lack of skill and knowledge.
I believe the problem lies squarely on the instructors shoulders and the organizations shoulders.
I do not understand how students can be promoted to Shodan if they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. The organizations that promoted the instructor that allows his expectations to be as low as they are, are the real culprits. There are no checks and balances.
In fact some of these same instructors do not deserve their grade. Often times expectations of others are a reflection of the instructors own skills. If the instructors skills are subpar then their expectations of their students will follow suite unless it's a McDojo, which I assume we are not talking about.
If you look at the students teacher I would be willing to bet that their skills would not measure up to your expectations of their rank either.
I have had new students from other schools walk in and tell me they are this rank or that and after testing them I do not think less of them for their subpar skill or knowledge, I think less of their instructor and the organization that allowed the instructor to have lower standards.
If we are talking McDojo's then that is a whole lower level in my book. Belts and titles for money! Shameful to say the least.
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Devil Dog
Godan
Shorin ryu, goju ryu, isshin ryu, kobudo. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16435
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's the old saying...
A black belt in one style/dojo is a green belt in another!!
Standards, imho, are valid only within the style/school/governing body. There's such a wide variety, pin-pointing to an overall standard is impossible. Why? Because styles, schools, and governing bodies, at times, can't agree on the most basic of things let alone the complexity of rank standards.
Everyone wants to the the Chief and no one wants to be the Indian...to use a well known saying.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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devil dog
Orange Belt
Joined: 07 Dec 2013
Posts: 153
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Kobudo Judo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
It's the old saying...
A black belt in one style/dojo is a green belt in another!!
Standards, imho, are valid only within the style/school/governing body. There's such a wide variety, pin-pointing to an overall standard is impossible. Why? Because styles, schools, and governing bodies, at times, can't agree on the most basic of things let alone the complexity of rank standards. |
I agree with you to some degree. However we have all seen the Yondan that displays the skill level of a Sankyu. Do we chock this up as "thats the requirements with in their system"? Maybe. But what does that say about their system?
I believe that those that brought the arts to this country had a higher standard imposed upon them than what is expected of students today.
I believe the fast food generation and greed have a lot to do with lowered expectations.
The training I recieved as a child was brutal compared to what we see today. You actually couldn't imagine testing for Shodan after seeing what was required. Now obviously what wass acceptable then is not necessarily what is acceptable today. However expectations IMHO have changed as well.
It took on average 5 to 7 years to reach Shodan. Now its 3 in most arts. How did that change? Well we added grades and changed curriculum some might say. Thats fine and I accept that. However did the standards for Shodan change as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but Shodan used to have a very high standard to achieve and publics perception of what a black belt was. And back then for good reason. A Shodan could handle themselves and were for all intensive purposes bad dudes.
Can we say that about all BB's today? I would say no. And I am sorry to say that I have seen my fair share that have come through my doors claiming to be a BB and with credentials to boot and they did not measure up.
I am sure that some of my students would not measure up to say a hard core Kyukushin club. However there should be a minimum standard for BB and that standard should be that they can protect themselves and fight more than with just a little bit of proficiency.
Most organizations put their reputations on how many BB's they have and the public puts a high degree of trust that they must be a good school because of this. Personally I would rather have 40 Gokyu's that are at the same level as thier Shodan are. I would rather someone come into my school and look at the Mudansha ranks and say "wow they are good, I wouldn't want to mess with them" and look at my Yudansha and say "I'll never get to that level, they are great".
That to me is how the old perseption of what it means to be a black belt is maintained and our standards as a whole are maintained.
I personally believe that it starts to degrade from the top. If the highest of instructors expectations lower then the instructors under their direction start to lower theirs as well and students that shouldn't even be testing for Sankyu get to test and pass their Shodan test.
Does this effect me? No. Does it effect the perception of the arts as a whole? I think so. I have heard more times than I care to mention from people that "Karate is ok but it's not MMA".
This agbravates me becuase Karate is the original MMA or cross training art. The founders trained with who ever and in what ever art they thought had valid techniques and incorporated them into what we know today.
They say this because the perception of what it means to be a BB has been lowered due to these instructors that promote students that should not be promoted. It does effect the arts as we know it and is whether my art or your art or the way we teach maintains the integrity of what used to be the standard or not. One bad apple so the expression goes.
I understand we all have different requirements. I may require this kata for this rank and you may require another. That is not the point. The point is no matter what organization, school or teacher the minimum standards of what we had to live up to when we first started have changed. And I blame the organizations that have allowed this to compensate for higher attendance or just plain greed.
Sensei8, I have come to respect your opinion and enjoy reading your wisdom but on this one I only agree with half of your point of view. No disrespect, just my opinion on the state of the arts today. I have seen it with my own eyes and although it does not effect me directly it does effect the perceptions of the art I love and have devoted my life too. So I guess it's a sore and personal subject for me.
I don't believe in a universal art that is governed by a universal organization but I do believe that some standards should be held sacred or our art will suffer for it and already is. In fact I believe the larger the organization the lower the standards become in most cases.
Just my 2 cents aand my heavily winded point of view.
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Devil Dog
Godan
Shorin ryu, goju ryu, isshin ryu, kobudo. |
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on the post.
