Dan Testing, My Ego, and Some Philosophy.

KyungYet · Yellow Belt

I've been wondering, lately, about some pretty complex issues in martial arts regarding testing criteria, organizational structure, respect for rank, and my own personal humility. It's too much for my little mind to wrestle with, so I bring it to you, my community.

Let's start with my personal issue and get it out of the way, because I know up front that it's egotistical and I've got a good clamp on it in the studio (but less in my head, which is why I'm here).

I'M WARNING YOU: this is going to sound arrogant and annoying. People are supposed to be humble and patient, and I know I have to work on these things! But I can't work out these issues if I pretend to "get it" and lie, right? So here I am, in all my narcissistic glory. Be gentle. I admit my faults.

I'm testing for my next rank of black - my first rank test in almost 25 years. During that time I went back to grad school to get my PhD (which was NOT conducive to training, let me tell you!), and have been teaching karate in various contexts (including running a program at the University level). Now I've returned to the studio I taught at in the 1990s to teach again and to train up for my next rank. It makes me really happy to reconnect with this community and help out my old friend (the owner of the studio, who is a 9th degree master).

But I'm having some problems with the other black belts. I am certainly not the highest ranked black belt in class anymore... I undertested and am now ranked well below my skill level, after some 30 years of teaching and training. So it would be tough enough on my ego to have so many black belts lining up in front of me in class, and giving me orders and "advice" as it were... but the hardest part is that... most of them sort of suck.

There, I said it.

It seems like black belts are awarded more and more nowadays based upon persistence and not performance. One of the students I gave their first karate lesson to, ever, is now three ranks of black belt higher than I am (and makes it known that this is the case), but does not show a commensurate level of skill. The difference is simply that she continued to test while I did not. And I grant her that! She WAS more consistent in her testing than I was! But what about ability?

I worry about what it would look like to an uninitiated stranger to walk into the studio and watch a class. "How come those people in the front of the class aren't the best martial artists?" they might wonder. And I wonder the same thing. I understand making some allowances for getting older (I sure am!) or being injured, but other than that, shouldn't your high-ranked black belts perform in a much superior manner to your lower ranked black belts?

The upper ranked belt tests in our (very large) organization (which I would rather not name, thank you very much) don't even involve the performance of any martial arts. From Master rank on up, it's about service and having being certified in a number of seminar classes, and it's based on years spent in training. There is no actual performance criteria.

So. I wonder what other schools out there are like. Are your tests ability-based through the ranks of black? That is, if you can't "do stuff," will you still pass? Are your instructors hard on what qualifies as "doing stuff" properly, or will they pass students if they "try hard" or have been there a long time? Is this what you feel testing should be based on? At what level should actual performance stop being the main criterion?

To be clear, I always line up appropriately, I always pick up targets and the like when paired with a higher ranked black belt, I always show proper deference and respect in response to their corrections (be they useful or less useful). It's only in my head that I get irked. I would say, "well, it's my own fault for not testing enough - I'll just test up to the rank I deserve!" but there is a four year wait in between tests, so I will be unlikely to catch up to these people who continue to be awarded belts for taking seminars and just sticking around long enough. I don't know if I feel like I should be promoted or they should be DEmoted. Really, I just think they shouldn't have been promoted this high in the first place.

I know martial arts aren't about lording your rank over others, or about attaining "prizes" of rank that make you feel important. I know this. Believe it or not, this is more about what I perceive to be disrespect to the entire style: belts awarded undeservedly to retain students, or to reward long-time students for loyalty and persistence; the awkwardness and oddity of high-ranking students mismatched to their ability level and lower-ranking students with much higher ability levels unable to proceed quicker/further due to strict rules about how frequently one can be examined. It's my sense of justice that I think is being tapped into here - I think I just want everybody to look like the rank they hold... and unfortunately, since I'm now part of this weird universe, my stupid ego has gotten involved.

Ok, go ahead and yell at me a little if you must, but also maybe give me some thoughts on what your systems look like in this regard, and whether you feel belt tests should be merit-based or effort-based, and some advice on how I can crush down my ego a bit and be a better black belt even in an environment I find a little unfair. Unfortunately, I can't just find another studio because a) the organizational rules are exactly the same at all other studios of this type, b) I don't want to change styles, and there aren't a ton of other studios that teach my style to being with, and c) I DO like my old studio and the master instructor and I'd rather work this out in my head and be loyal than stomp off somewhere else.

Feeling better having even written this out,

Kyung Yet
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If you practice weak, you become weak. If you practice strong, you become strong.

hammer · Green Belt

mazzybear · Brown Belt

I think the politics of martial arts suck, the association to which my club belongs to states that all ranks up to 3rd Dan must grade if they wish to gain promotion. All grading are done by a panel of 5 taken from schools across the association, so they are not done "in house". you must wait the specified time in between grades (2 year from 1st to 2nd Dan and 3 years from 2nd to 3rd Dan), the minimum age to sit for 2nd Dan is 16 and you must have 20 competition stamps for each grade of 1st Dan and above. I think this is as it should be, it's from 3rd Dan up where it begins to fall apart IMO. This is the stage where belts are "awarded" for what the say is "time spent training/teaching, depth of knowledge and service to the art" when in reality it's whose backside you're willing to crawl up and lick. If you go against the association on any matter, then your card is marked and it's hard to move up after that. There are folk with 7th or 8th Dan that are half the age and don't have half the practical knowledge of some at my club and I think that is wrong. I'm only 4th Kyu but my eyes have been well and truly opened to the politics at play within the association and I have to say, it's a side of the art I don't like.
So I'm in agreement with you, rank should be about skill/knowledge/ability, not whose bum you're willing to kiss to progress.

Mo.
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Be water, my friend.

ps1 · Black Belt

This is, and always will be, the danger of systems that are less "alive" than others. The less you actually need to prove your abilities and skills produce results, the less your abilities and skills will be able to produce results.

In BJJ, a black belt simply gets a stripe (dan) every three years for the first three degrees, every 5 years through 6th and the rest have time constraints but are not guarnteed. No tests, no frills, you are simply promoted...with one caveat...you must have trained consistently during that time. Jiu-Jitsu is so alive, you have no choice but to get better over time. So a third degree can usually destroy a 1st degree with few problems.

Now there is a tipping point, of course, where age catches up with you and the younger, faster people will be able to defeat you if they have a high enough skill. But, at that point, the additional ranks are more about personal contribution to the art and overall technical understanding and ability to transmit that knowledge to others.

I'm not just trying to brag on BJJ here. But this is the same for most arts that are very alive. BJJ, Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Wrestling ect... High level people in all these arts tend to be obviously better than the lower level people. It's just the way it is.
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jaypo · Purple Belt

Not to sound rude, but I do think ego plays into this a lot, and I'm glad you recognize that. Personally, I don't take offense when anyone offers me advice, because if there's one thing MA has taught me, it's humility. I don't hold my rank above anyone's head, and I think people respect me for that. I also have this philosophy- I train for ME, so rank means nothing if I don't feel that I have what it takes to earn that rank. I always say that I would rather be the white belt that beats the black belts instead of the black belt that gets defeated by the white belt.

There is an article somewhere on this site that quotes one of the Gracie's opinion of a black belt rank. His opinion is that you can't always give rank based on "he's better at x than he is, so he should be a black belt and he shouldn't" because there are too many variables. For example, I'm 40, and I can't do too many high kicks anymore. But does that make me less effective at my art than the 20 year old that can do the JCVD scissor kicks? And the 20 year old can do his techniques prettier than I can because I'm twice his age with 2 bad knees and poor flexibility, but I have a deeper understanding of Kata Jion than he does. As long as the technique is effective, does it matter whose is prettier? It boils down to whether or not the instructor feels that the student has done enough individually to warrant being awarded the rank. That may mean time in the dojo, effort, skill level displayed, competitions won, whatever the case may be.
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Seek Perfection of Character
Be Faithful
Endeavor
Respect others
Refrain from violent behavior.

KyungYet · Yellow Belt

Jaypo -

Not rude! I expected something along these lines from someone.

It's a real puzzler because in the martial arts there is such a focus on rank, and rank order, and respect towards rank... and at the same time there is an equal focus on humility, and the UN-importance of rank, etc. Sometimes it's tough to sort out.

I mostly agree with you about the JCVD-kicking guy not necessarily being better than the lower-kicking, more knowledgeable guy. But to not get off track, the case I'm describing is much more extreme than what you're perceiving. You have the skilled guy who is a 2nd Dan, and the guy-who-looks-like-an-orange-belt-in-basically-all-ways who is a 5th Dan.

I agree that there is ego involved, which is why I'm trying to focus on improving myself and not on the rank of others. But at the same time, it vexes me that my studio/organization has allowed the promotion of people who are not fantastic, because it reflects poorly on the studio/organization. As an unfortunate side-effect, people who ARE skilled but are of lower rank (e.g., myself, in this particular story) end up wrestling a bit with the resulting ego-knot of being told that their kick "needs more snap" by a person who has their foot in the wrong position during their kick, which was weak, during which they dropped their guard to their waist. Y'know?

But: I do agree that a MAist can learn something from anyone. I've had comments from beginner rankings who observed something useful that I could take away. It isn't always the case, 'tho.

Good thoughts!

KY
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If you practice weak, you become weak. If you practice strong, you become strong.

jaypo · Purple Belt

I didn't realize that the 2nd dan looked like an orange belt! That is a different issue (or the same issue on a larger scale!)

I would expect someone who is a 5th dan to be able to perform every technique correctly (as their physical abilities allow them to) and to display the knowledge that a 5th dan should. (My Sensei is 62, so he can't kick any higher than his waist, but when he kicks, it's done correctly with the proper body mechanics) I guess I would feel the same way. I would probably spend time with that person asking a lot of questions to help him and myself. I'd make it seem like I am using his knowledge for myself, but I'd really be gauging his. It may also show him that you possess a skill level at or above his, so he may cease holding rank over peoples' heads. But I agree- it is kinda aggravating to get told that you're doing something wrong from a person that can't do it correctly!

I do understand the concern about the organization allowing that to take place. I sometimes question those within my own club, but 9 times out of 10, my concerns are put to rest shortly after a testing cycle. I am finding that the skill level of a lot of our students increases at a pretty quick rate, but we also allow training as often as possible. We have one student that trains at least 5 days a week, and sometimes for 2 hours. Most schools around here (TMA's) will only train 2 sessions a week at an hour each. So if you go by time in the dojo, our students are sometimes training 2 to 3 times more than the normal school.

Along those same lines, I did have 1 younger student that got to purple belt. He was very mouthy and a little too confident. One night, it just so happened to be the night before his purple belt test, I overheard him being condescending to another green belt that he thought he was superior to. So I came in and asked him to perform Heian Sandan, and I wanted it to be up to purple belt standards. He did the first movement, and I let him know it was wrong. He was puzzled- he had done this kata a thousand times. So I told him that he didn't have enough weight on his back leg to call it a good back stance. He corrected it and turned the other way. WRONG! Same issue. We went thru the entire kata, and I made sure that he knew what it takes to do it perfectly. He was pretty humbled, and I hadn't seen that condescending attitude again. (He's since them moved out of state). My purpose in doing that was for a couple of reasons- I don't like people that try to impose superiority that way. Let your skill do the talking for you. He had to be shown that although he has talent, he still has a lot to learn. And the other reason was that he would be moving on to a different school in a different state, and I wanted him to represent our club in a positive light. I didn't want him going to another instructor doing basic katas wrong!
_________________
Seek Perfection of Character
Be Faithful
Endeavor
Respect others
Refrain from violent behavior.

Nidan Melbourne · KF Sempai

At my dojo we don't give a kyu grade for persistance as they have to perform up to their standard. Although I have questioned my CI about a few people that he has passed when they shouldn't have received that promotion because they weren't up to that required standard.

For Dan Grades we are looking for the performance and the quality of the techniques and have a high standard. But also we look at the persistance of the person. And you need to deliver both on the day of the grading.

If you don't show persistance and determination throughout the grading we don't see so favorably. In other means you have to give 100% throughout the grading.

The standard of techniques you have to be of a good standard. So for a person going for godan you need to show that your better than someone going for their yondan.

sensei8 · KF Sensei

KyungYet · Yellow Belt

Sensei 8... what you're describing is exactly what I'm wanting for my style. I'd rather be a 3rd Dan for life, and know that I deserve that rank, than be a 9th Dan surrounded by a motley crew of people who's skill - my own included! - is truly unknown.

You gave me the perfect answer. But while I recognize your style must be Japanese, I'm not familiar with all the terms you use (I'm from a Korean style). If you don't mind sharing, what is your style? Shotokan? Karate? Anyway, it sounds really challenging in the way I'd want martial arts to be challenging, and I wish I had the authority/say-so to bring that kind of impartial, straightforward, rigor to my organization... which is big, and well-known, unfortunately.

Thank you for your answer!
KY
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If you practice weak, you become weak. If you practice strong, you become strong.

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