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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bravo Tempest- you're a man that studies his history!

To further that point though, grappling was always an important part of warfare, and this wasnt just limited to Japan. Indeed some rennaisance fencing manuals and literature explain how a skilled wrestler is always to be feared in a fencing fight (and even an armored one.) Whoever is on their back has very limited mobility, especially so when you add armor. Not terribly unlike modern MMA the guy that ends up on top wins, and he'd probably win quicker when he can drag his dagger and most likely finish the match from the top position. This explains why the typically approved means of winning a grappling match was by a clean throw (ippon) or by pin for time as this was regarded as ample time to draw your secondary weapon and finish the fight.

This mentality of always having to be on top continued even into unarmed combat as shown by catch and folk style wrestling. Once you had the innovation of Judo, they started with their challenge matches but it was always exclusively against strikers. Maeda makes his way to Brazil in the west where his opponents are overwhelmingly boxers and wrestlers as opposed to karateka, kung fu, and other asian styles. Technically Judo wasnt allowed to do "challege matches" anymore as Kano wanted to clean up the image of martial arts in Japan. Maeda therefore called what he did Ju Jitsu (in all fairness he practiced both). The Brazilians cant translate properly, so they misspell it "Jiu" insteade of "Ju" but like it better so they stick with it...

Anyways....

With so many wrestlers and given the smaller frames of your average asian vs average european, hes going to find himself on his back more often, as did Helio Gracie. As such you have two choices- learn how to fight their game (wrestling) or learn how to fight a game they're unfamiliar with (guard) and BJJ finds its niche with a very effective grappling game that works both on top and bottom....
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not terribly unlike modern MMA the guy that ends up on top wins, and he'd probably win quicker when he can drag his dagger and most likely finish the match from the top position.


This is why I said that a fight was usually ended once it went to the ground, typically with the guy who fells death. Being on top in a fight is just better.

I teach a historical european wrestling class as part of the HEMA that I do, and one of the key things is that most wrestling styles reflected this reality in that a forceful flat back landing is usually enough to score a victory, even in german ringen styles.

But to illustrate the differences, there are few to no chokes in german wrestling or in any armored combat style because the gorget is a thing. Chokes, at least as practiced in Judo and BJJ, are very much a more recent addition based on some of the unarmored jujitsu skills, as well as Chinese chin-na.
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Another thing to consider is the historical context. Unlike in a modern, mostly unarmed, and more importantly un ARMORED context, a medieval battlefield was populated with armor, weapons, and always multiple combatants. Grappling happened all the time, but ground fighting, such as the sophisticated guard game of BJJ, would be both ineffective and counter productive to good training. Most fights, in that context, ended when someone went to the ground, usually in that persons death. So, you have a number of methods of sending other people to the ground, a number of methods of finishing fights on the ground, but for most people, only a few simple methods of getting back to your feet once you are ON the ground. Partly because that is your only goal, and partly because when wearing armor there are only so many methods of getting up that work.


I think we have a tendency to pigeon hole Japanese Jujutsu into a 'battlefield art'.

Whilst it is certainly true to say that systems such as Takenouchi-ryu were formulated in the Sengoku period (the time when battles raged), schools continued to develop in the 'more peaceful' centuries that followed.

In said centuries, understanding how to fight was still important - however the emphasis shifted away from battlefield techniques (in armour etc) and worked around more civilian attire (montsuki kimono and hakama etc.).

The use of weapons and their tactics also changed, and whilst most, if not all arts, were sword centric - techniques were added and adapted from older methods to accommodate these cultural shifts.

If we look at later arts like Sosuishi-ryu and then quite a bit later systems like Tenjin shinyo-ryu, they incorporate a lot more 'wresting' style grappling however it is important to remember - there was a heavy bias toward grappling with a weapon or as it was commonly referred to -'kogusoku'.

Grappling with a razor sharp kodachi changes the dynamics of things quite considerably, but it was a necessary skillset to acquire given that most of the samurai class would have such a side arm - and unlike the katana it was worn all of the time (where as it was not permitted to wear katana in many surroundings).

That said - systems like Sosuishi-ryu, Tenjin shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu also have plenty of unarmed techniques as their syllabus contain Ne-waza (ground techniques) Kansetsu waza (joint locking techniques) and (Shime-waza choking techniques).

In fact Kano utilised many of these techniques when he created his kodokan Judo.

K.
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