Hapkido

Jade_Lotus · Orange Belt

BlackI, you are both right and wrong...you are correct in that there are inferior fighters, but there are ALSO inferior arts. How could you believe otherwise? Do you believe that every art out there is equal and the same?? This is impossible, by their very nature of being "styles" they are different. Do you understand this phrase "There is no good without bad" I'll assume not, since I've said it before, so let me explain it to you. How would you know what is good, without something to compare it to?? If there was no bad, then you would not know what is good. How do know that something is sweet, if you've never tasted sour?? You can't just "take someones word for it", to do this shows weakness of the mind, and will result in you being walked on your entire life. The philosophy behind an art make the art what it is..without a philosophy, a "style" is nothing more than a bunch of pointless movements of the body. You have supported my argument, and contradicted yourself, by making the statement that there are "inferior philosphies" After reading your post, it leaves one asking the question..do you really comprehend what philosophy and "style" really are?? Do you realize that style without philosophy is nothing?? Of course you must first comprehend, what "style" and philosophy are, to answer the second. The idea of style playing more a role than the fighter is a simple one. Don't just look at the surface, take the idea and think about it. It doesn't take an enormous amount of comprehension to understand the idea placed before you. It's common sense at it's most basic level

. I never said anything negative about Hapkido, I was responding to the comment "style don't mean much". I don't comment on specific styles, I have quite a different belief about "styles" in general. I hope this helps you to understand my belief.
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LeaF · Black Belt

This topic keeps comming up again and again.... Anyway my stand on it is that fighter is what matters not the art as much. The main arguement it seems that people have saying that art is more important then style appears to be.... If 2 people train exactly the same and study two different styles who will win. Well it is true that not all styles are created equal, I acknowledge that BUT Not all people are created equal either. In 99.9% of situations the fight is determined by the person not the style. I say this because it is almost imposable to find two people that have the exact same talents /abilities want it just as bad as the other person, and train for exactly the same period of time and then when this happens 0.1% of the time, Then and only then will the actual style of the person make the difference.

Thank you

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Goju Ryu Karate-do and Okinawan Kobudo, 17 Years Old 1st kyu Brown Belt in in Goju Ryu Karate-do, & Shodan in Okinawan Kobudo
Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result.
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H@pkid0ist · Orange Belt

Traditional HKD strikes are not simular to TKD. TKD is a karate based art. Traditional HKD is Both soft and Hard style but primarily soft. Our techniques are fluid. There are no reverse punches in traditional HKD. Not Choi's or Ji's. If a HKD class is more hard and liner with a karate influance, then it is most likley a TKD based HKD and not traditional. If you were to go to a traditional School later it would be no different than starting a new style. We have this same situation in my dojang right now. Two people studied in Korea under an old student of my teacher. They got their black and red belts. The style there was TKD based. Hard and Liner, snapped kicks. For them everything is very different. My teacher studied under choi untill the day he died and still is under JI. So we have the influence of both systems of HKD. Neither one is Hard or linier. We stay very fluid and natural, ensuring that we do not snap our kicks to prevent anjury from hyper-extension as well as joint deterioration over time. Our kicks are just as quick and there is more power delivered from utilizing the body and not just the portion from the knee to the foot.

BlackI · Orange Belt

Jade_Lotus you last post was a bit condescending and contradictary.

Jade's Quote:
It is not solely the art, and it is not solely the fighter, it is both. Howerver, the art is more imporant. You must take into account the means by which the fighter fights, for his art makes him the fighter he is.

Right here you say that it is both but you lean towards the art, in so far as, to decide who the victor would be.

Jade's Quote:
First, it must be realized that not all arts are equal, and not all arts are good.

Then you fully commit to say that there are inferior arts

Jade's Quote:
I was responding to the comment "style don't mean much". I don't comment on specific styles, I have quite a different belief about "styles" in general.

Then you made this statement in you last post. I did not think that you were insulting HKD, it was taking that you feel that there are inferior arts.
I am almost willing to say that is ludicrous. Is there any scientific data to prove this fact. Can you say that ever time a HKD vs TKD, one or the other will win? No, I don't think you can. To many unknown varibles to name a winner, if you want to stay scientific about this whole thing.

It is not the art/style perse that make a difference but the philosophy behind the teaching. This is why you have alot of people feeling that there are inferior/superior arts. If you have a bunch of Mcdojo's then there will always be inferior fighters, but that is not to stay that a fighter could not go to the same style and a different school and become a great fighter.

That is the bitter and sweet that you are talking about.

It is solely the fighter that has the work ethic, commitment and intelligence to become a could fighter. Not style.

I am almost willing to bet that if you take the greatest fighter in the world that happened to be trained in a form of karate and then strip him/her of all his/her skills then trained in Tai Chi, they would still become the best fighter in the world.

Just my Ideas and opinions

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In search of the Temple of Light

Jade_Lotus · Orange Belt

Jade's Quote:
It is not solely the art, and it is not solely the fighter, it is both. Howerver, the art is more imporant. You must take into account the means by which the fighter fights, for his art makes him the fighter he is.

BlackI's Quote:
Right here you say that it is both but you lean towards the art, in so far as, to decide who the victor would be.

Yes, it is true that it is both, but art plays more of a role. I never said that fighter didn't play a role. I can talk about the significance of the fighter as well, but the discussion here is about art playing a more important role.

BlackI's Quote:
"Then you fully commit to say that there are inferior arts"

Yes, that's what I've been saying. There is always an opposite to everything. It is impossible for all arts to be the same. Since they are not the same, how can they be equal? No art is perfect, no art can teach you all you will ever know. By this very design, there will always be a good and bad. You can't know one without the other.

BlackI's Quote:
"Then you made this statement in you last post. I did not think that you were insulting HKD, it was taking that you feel that there are inferior arts.
I am almost willing to say that is ludicrous. Is there any scientific data to prove this fact. Can you say that ever time a HKD vs TKD, one or the other will win? No, I don't think you can. To many unknown varibles to name a winner, if you want to stay scientific about this whole thing."

Ludicrous?? Ask yourself this question.."Is my art good?" "I any art good?" It doesn't matter if you answer Yes or No, my point remains the same and valid, there is no good without bad. You don't need scientific data, to understand this. Like I've said before I don't comment on specific style, I will never say this style can beat this style. You're right, you cannot do that. What I am saying is that not all styles are good, by nature and design, they ALL cannot be good. Judging which is better than the other is not my intent, nor my desire. I could careless, like I said I have a very different view on style. I'm not trying to change minds or beliefs, but If I read something I feel is hindering in any way, then I will comment. I don't believe in "style" or limitaions, but I comment on then anyways...why you may ask? I'm here for martial progression..the never ending path of the martial way. If I can offer help to other Martial artists then I will.

BlackI's Quote:
"It is not the art/style * that make a difference but the philosophy behind the teaching. This is why you have alot of people feeling that there are inferior/superior arts. If you have a bunch of Mcdojo's then there will always be inferior fighters, but that is not to stay that a fighter could not go to the same style and a different school and become a great fighter.

That is the bitter and sweet that you are talking about.

It is solely the fighter that has the work ethic, commitment and intelligence to become a could fighter. Not style. "[/color]

What is an art/style without philosophy??? What makes an art an art?? It is it's philosophy. You need to put a purpose behind the series of movements prescribed in each art. If you don't, there you have nothing more than meaningless movements of the body. This purpose..is the philosophy/concepts that make an art an art. You admit that there is inferior philosophy. Based off of this, you concede that there are inferior arts. You can't have an art without philosophy.

BlackI's Quote:
"If you have a bunch of Mcdojo's then there will always be inferior fighters, but that is not to stay that a fighter could not go to the same style and a different school and become a great fighter"

Not every art will make you a good fighter. Not every art accomplishes combat. You speak of work ethic, commitment, intelligence as attributes that make a good fighter. No one has stated otherwise, I've said nothing to the contrary. What I have said, is that this work ethic, commitment and intelligence will aid the fighter in learning what he is learning, it will make the learning process more natural and the concepts easier to understand. But still you have the medium in which he uses to fight. I will refer to these attributes, as an innate ability. Innate ability doesn't magically make you a good fighter. If you take a person that has an innate fighting ability, but that person, has no training, is not aware of his abilities, then his innate ability does him no good. He needs a means by which to utilize and harness that innate ability. If the means or "art" he chooses is flawed, then he may indeed be the best at that art, but it will catch up to him, and eventually he will lose. Having been confined and limited by his "style". The bitter/sweet that I speak of is the ideaology that you can't have one without the other, you wouldn't know that sugar is sweet if you've never tasted a lemon or something bitter. You would not know a technique is effiecient, without knowing what is ineffiecient.

Let's just humor the subject for a minute..say that everything that i've been posting, are things that a "Sensei" or a "master" of a particular style has taught me. Say that this ideaology I place before you are the teaching of this style. Let's just say that, just like you practice and study your MA, that this one is mine, only the philosopy, and ideas taught, are portrayed in my recent posts. Many people discredit it, you yourself, almost call it ludicrous. Yet this is my style, this is means and the purpose behind all I study and know. This is the basis for the applications of my techniques, the reasoning behind it. Surely, if I continue in this ludicrous manner, then I will never be a good fighter. Yet, I have a innate fighting ability...ah, but wait, the means in which I use my innate ability is ludicrous. Do you see my point? You support my viewpoint, while contradicting yourself at the time.

It's like the example I gave a while back..you can take the mose innate pilot on the planet, and then you can take an average pilot..place the innate pilot in a bi-plane, and place the average fighter in a modern day fighter jet. You pick the winner? There is no magical powers at work here...the innate pilot will lose. His innate ability doesn't magically make the average pilot lose control of his plane and crash before he can shoot him from 50 miles away with a missile. This is just an example, but can be applied to the MA's.

Sure, one can say that there are hundreds of different variables that determine the outcome of a fight, outside that of the fighter and art. This is true, but you can't rely solely on that, it seems that every time there is a discussion about art or fighter that the ultimate response is that there are so many variables that it doesn't matter. If this is true, then we are all studying the martial arts for no reason, because there are so many variables out there, that it wouldn't make a difference. This should not be the ultimate response, there indeed are many variables that determine the outcome a fight, but it is still reliant upon the the fighter and the means by which he is taught to fight to win the fight. Let's just say that you have a magnificent innate ability...maybe you do, I don't know...but let's say you do...and lets say you've never ever studied any MA, would you know how to perform the techniques that you know now?? of course not...your "style", defines what you know, as a fighter. It is up to you to seek further knowledge outside that or your "style". The will and heart of a fighter in undoubtedly aid tremendously in all that he does pertaining to the fight, it will most certainly put passion into his fight. But the fact still remains the same, the way in which he uses his innate ability is through what he knows. So, I say that both the fighter and the art play a role, of course, but the more importance lies in the art. But, don't mis-understand me, I will and cannot say that the heart of fighter is not important, as a matter of fact it is crucial, only that art gives the means to fight, thus being more important.

BlackI's Quote:
I am almost willing to bet that if you take the greatest fighter in the world that happened to be trained in a form of karate and then strip him/her of all his/her skills then trained in Tai Chi, they would still become the best fighter in the world.

I'm not one to judge the effectiveness any one art, I belive in martial purity, I seek progession in the martial way outside the bounds of limitation, and style. Like I said, I will not say that this art is better than that art, it's no my place nor my desire to do so. It doesn't matter to me. However, I do know by the very nature and design of a "style" then all is not the same and all is not good. If there exists a "Greatest fighter in the world" certainly he would not be the "greatest" having confined and limited his abilites by staying within the bounds of one "style". He would most certainly learn that in his quest to be the "greatest". That there is no style, boundaries, or limitations in the true martial arts. He would discover, that no one art can teach all that is to be encountered in combative situations. He will discover that not all arts are complete, and that not all are good. Like I said before, I'm not here to convert, or change minds. You believe what you believe, and I what I believe. You can take what I say and do what you want with it, that is your right and choice. I respect all views, but will not hesitate to offer my experiences and knowledge, to help others in their martial progression. I wish you the best of luck in your martial progression, and I hope you attain that which you seek for. keep your gaze wide and open, there is always more to learn, there are no boundaries, no limits..only the limitations one puts upon himself. Look past the limitations, and you begin to walk further down the path of the martial way. These are things that through my journey I have learned. Take what you want, use it as you will..or throw it all away. It is all the same to me.

-Jade_Lotus-
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Understand this, a man without honor, is not a man at all, but a coward in disquise.

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Blammo · Yellow Belt

So anyway...Go ahead and take Hapkido! From what I've seen it's very cool and fluid. Just imagine having someone in a wrist lock and he's struggling from the pain while you side kick some other guy out of the way.

BlackI · Orange Belt

I am sorry to be responding so late on this topic, but I have been sick and loaded down with school work.

In regards to our debate Jade_Lotus, I see we just have a difference in opinion, but that does not make either one of them bad.

I am just going to comment on your Good and Bad statement about the ARTs.

I agree that there is good and bad with everything, but when it comes to the Martial Arts or any art for that matter there is no good and bad. It is art one person may say that Beetohoven sucks when some else feels that it is moving. This is why I say that all arts are equal and it is only the philosphy of the teacher who in fact corrupts the art.

Just my opinion.
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Jade_Lotus · Orange Belt

I'm glad you're feeling better. In any case, I agree, let's just leave it at that, no use in debating back and forth..we just agree to disagree. As you said, we have differing opinions..this is the nature of discussion, I only offer what I have learned for the martial development of others, nobody has to take it to heart...doesn't make it right or wrong, as you said. I wish you the best of luck in your martial journey, and hope you find that which you seek.

-Jade_Lotus-
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Understand this, a man without honor, is not a man at all, but a coward in disquise.

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