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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Maybe under less shifty circumstances?
Many people who start a journey through martial arts end up thinking about teaching, and maybe opening their own school. In that light, I think it's perfectly natural for a student to want to break off and start teaching. If it were me in that position, I would try to do it as diplomatically as possible (and not right down the street.)
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
I'm not actively seeking to steal my instructor's students but I've been thinking about this myself this year.
I don't like the direction the club is going, have some very different ideas about how to teach and run things and, I think it's the next step in my training and learning. I don't intend to take students and definitely have no intention of issuing my instructor an ultimatum, but I half suspect a lot of the higher grade students would follow me.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The most baffling part of the hypothetical situation originally presented was that the « student » seemed to want to remain within the same group. It doesn’t make much sense to push for more influence or authority when one so profoundly disagrees with everything. Why not just part ways completely and start a new entity altogether? |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
Ok. Well lets say there is a person that is more of a business person rather than a MA instructor. Money and greed would be the over riding factor here. If a student that brought in 90% or higher of this instructors student base were to threaten to take them with him, thus leaving the instructor with less students which equals less money, that instructor might be more inclined to bargain with the student rather than loose his cash cow.
On the other hand i'll put it in terms of a more honest instructor that just started his school and maybe in the same scenario is promoted, albeit undeservedly, because of his fast growth within the organization and this student gives him the same ultimatum. He may be inclined to deal with the student rather than loose all of his students and thus face his failure with his organization.
For me this would never be an issue because I neither need the money (full time job) nor care about retention and do not have an organization pushing for more enrollment. However I am the exception rather than the rule these days.
Being that these were true life scenarios that happened in the business world I don't think it would be too far fetched happening in the MA world considering many schools are more business oriented. Just do a google search and you will find mega schools with 1000's of enrolled students and gimmicks that if you follow their methods that "you too could have a successful school". It's rampant and there's one in pretty much every state, city and town across America. Is it really that implausible of a scenario for these type of schools?
What if the head instructor had no taste for the business aspects or sales tactics and just wanted to pass on their art? And what if they had a student (maybe even a senior student) that had these ambitions and talents and brought huge numbers of students in? The head instructor, having their heart in the right place and now teaching many, also realizes that cash flow has picked up and they decide to quit their good paying full time job and become a full time instructor to keep up with the demands of his newly found student base. What if at that time, noticing that the head instructor has put himself in a situation of financial vulnerability, decides to pull the same scenario's?
Obviously you can see how the student would have some leverage and how the instructor might find themselves in a vulnerable situation where they might consider the students demands even though it goes against their principles. What if they had a family with kids at home? What if their ex-boss took the news of them leaving poorly and told them they would not be hired back? Or what if they already filled this persons position?
There are many things to consider in these scenarios. That is why they pose the questions. At first it's just a question minus the possible repercussions. Once you answer they then add in other factors and then again ask you to make a decision. Its a hard thing to do because even though your convictions might be stone solid, once they add repercussions into the mix even the most staunch wain in their views and even if they make the same decision they tend to take it a bit more serious and take more time to come to a decision.
Like I said these are true scenarios that have happened so it's not like this is an absurd set of questions although they might seem to be to most of us because we can not see ourselves in this position or had anything like this happen to us.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
I'm not actively seeking to steal my instructor's students but I've been thinking about this myself this year.
I don't like the direction the club is going, have some very different ideas about how to teach and run things and, I think it's the next step in my training and learning. I don't intend to take students and definitely have no intention of issuing my instructor an ultimatum, but I half suspect a lot of the higher grade students would follow me. |
This is a natural progression in the process IMHO. At first we rely on out instructors, then we become less dependent and then finally have to leave and teach.
I find nothing wrong with this way of thinking. In fact I have a long time friend that started in the arts with me and went his own direction back in HS. He joined a local school and over the years it declined into more of a McDojo than the place he started. He eventually left and started his own Dojo and like you and your suspicions many of the students followed him.
I do not see anything heinous about leaving and others following you.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
I'm not actively seeking to steal my instructor's students but I've been thinking about this myself this year.
I don't like the direction the club is going, have some very different ideas about how to teach and run things and, I think it's the next step in my training and learning. I don't intend to take students and definitely have no intention of issuing my instructor an ultimatum, but I half suspect a lot of the higher grade students would follow me. |
I don’t see anything wrong with you leaving. And I don’t see anything wrong with some of the students following you. If you were to tell the students beforehand and try to get them to follow you, that’s a different story.
This reminds me of a guy I used to bartend with. He was leaving and opening up his own place. One night when the boss wasn’t around, I asked him if he was looking for people. He stopped me before I finished my sentence and said he wouldn’t discuss it at work, but if I was interested to give him a call. He didn’t approach a single person, but 3 of us approached him in private. He wasn’t out to “steal” staff, and he and our former boss remained friends afterwards.
Don’t actively reach out to the students, but talk to them if they approach you. Make sure you let them know you’re not actively pursuing them, but if they decided to follow you then they’re welcome to.
Just my opinion. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Here is a follow-up question to what was asked on the original hypothetical situation: Is there any conceivable reason why the instructor might accept the student’s terms or make a deal? Why and under what circumstances might it happen? |
No conceivable reason whatsoever!! Give up an inch, they'll take a mile!! Never ever!! EXPELLED FOR CAUSE!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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