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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2394


PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Jyut-Ping-Terms-Pt-1-Wing-Chun-Way Reply with quote


"Combining" Cantonese with Wing Chun is a good idea, as it will not only help in pronouncing techniques and movements, it will also be useful in understanding the concepts.

"Doing" so giving a real sense of connection towards becoming an effective Wing Chun master, that can not only walk the walk but can also talk the talk.

"Missing" out on learning Cantonese and focusing solely on the short term benefits of developing fighting skills, is similar to always staying in the shallow end of a swimming pool.

"Branching" out till eventually being able to learn in depth Wing Chun from Cantonese native speakers.

"Having" and showing a sincere interest in learning Cantonese, is also showing that Chinese culture has become a part of your martial art journey.

"Realising" that the Cantonese language is not as difficult as it might first otherwise seem, should be considered to be very helpful for those taking up the challenge to learn.

"Conversing" in Cantonese and practising Wing Chun, is a rarity for none native speakers, as this is normally the way it is.

"Considering" that the Cantonese native speaker Sifu/teacher has learned Wing Chun and English, now teaching martial arts, making learning easier if the student also learns Cantonese.

Perhaps the martial art teacher you seek only speaks Cantonese, then what is your alternative?

Here is a fun over dramatised answer to ponder over: https://youtu.be/3VtfqAym5sQ

"Being" 80 Million people "speaking" Cantonese, foreigners "wanting" to, or "having" to converse with them need a simple way of "achieving" this.

"Communicating" in Cantonese for none native speakers has been around for a long time, with ways towards "achieving" this, new systems of writing have been developed.

Introduction to Cantonese pronunciation:
https://youtu.be/pF5MYtRFkrg

"Understanding" and "communicating" with Jyutping (words with a tone number) more so than with Pinyin (also having tone numbers) in this thread, due to not being able to type with Pinyin accents.

"Spellings" and "sounding" (Pinyin = Disambiguation, put together sounds; spelled-out sounds) are also written with the discretion of the user.

"Wording" in Cantonese with numbers (6 normally used with 3 more tones that are often times merged with the first 6, therefore theoretically there are 9 tones in all) attached are called ("Jyutping" = tone indicators) where pitches of tones are used to indicates different "meanings"

"Using" the wrong tone of a word when "talking" can change the "meaning, for example; Are you hungry?" to, Are you "having" dieheria?

"Introducing" "Jyupting" here at helpful introductory level only and not intended to "being" "anything "resembling" or considered to be official.

"Inspiring" other like wise martial artists to consider "learning" Cantonese is one of the reasons why this topic has been created.

"Taking" a course in Cantonese supersedes anything conveyed here.

Introduction to perfect Cantonese pronunciation:
https://youtu.be/Z_CnXnXlEuE

"Having" said that, there are still many "interesting" and valuable items and concepts "being" explained here in, that have been learned and thought through, due to many years of personal experience.

"Jyutping" Is only one of a few "Cantonese Romanization Systems" in use today.
Developed by The Linguistic Society of Hong Kong Cantonese Romanization Scheme.LSHKC

"Jyutping" was developed to help "learning" Cantonese pronunciation by the use of the letters from the English alphabet to represent sounds spoken in Cantonese dialect.

"Handing" "relinquishing" "returning" Hong Kong back to mainland China, the Cantonese dialect is thought to be since then on the decline due to Mandarin speakers "migrating" and "moving" in to Cantonese "speaking" regions.

"Looking" in to the distant future, now more than ever that Cantonese continues and stays alive as it is the voice/terminology/dialect of Wing Chun.

"Exampling" "simplistically" with the (Jyut6 ping3 Tone scales) Cantonese word 'Si' each number represents a different tone, 1 being highest and 6 being lowest.

Si 1 = Poem
Si 2 = History
Si 3 = Test
Si 4 = Time
Si 5 = City
Si 6 = Warrior, Matter or Thing

Cantonese Jyutping tones:
https://youtu.be/dpUVd8Id098

1, 9, 4, 0, 5, 6 are the six Cantonese numbers that correspond with the correct tone.

1. jat1
9. gau2
4. Sei3
0. ling4
5. ng5
6. luk6

Learning the six tones with numbers:
https://youtu.be/OCl3bW9Q830

"Having" a good sense of humour is a must when "learning" the 9 Cantonese (pinyin) tones below.

saam1 (three)
wun2 (bowl)
sai3 (small)
ngau4 (beef)
naam5 (belly)
min6 (noodles)
jat7 (one)
baak8 (hundred)
dip9 (plate)

"Ordering" this in a Chinese restaurant would be good for a laugh.
"100 plates of three small bowls of beef noodles"
saam1 wun2 sai3 ngau4 naam5 min6 jat7 baak8 dip9
https://youtu.be/DW9ua3of_J0

"Counting" in Cantonese with tone indicators:

0 - Zero = ling4
1 - One = jat1
2 - Two = ji6
3 - Three = saam3
4 - Four = sei3
5 - Five = ng5
6 - Six = luk6
7 - Seven = cat1
8 - Eight = baat3
9 - Nine = gau2
10 - Ten = sap6

Chinese Numbers = zung1 man4 sou3 zi6
Cantonese Numerals Song:
https://youtu.be/RpPNNk09glg

"Counting" and "Numbering in "Wing" Chun terminology is inseparable.

"Speaking" in English, tones are attached to words to accentuate them, unlike Cantonese where the same word has different tones and each tone defines a word.

"Mixing" any type of English tone in to Cantonese is not advisable, better to adhere to the tone grammar rules instead, as this will make for a far greater impression.

"Differentiating" one word from another; where one word can have many different "meanings" "depending" on the tone used when spoken.

"Coinciding" with English where one word can also have many connotations, as in Cantonese the tone used play's an important part in adding a different meaning altogether.

"Talking" to those that speak Cantonese fluently will automatically pick up on tone discrepancies, as "making" mistakes and "learning" from them is how we progress through trial and error, till eventually success.

"Using" Jyut6 ping3 Tones and Pitches: 6 Tones: 1 Do. 2 Re. 3 Me. 4 Fa. 5 Sol. 6 La

"Refining" Tones with Pitches:

1 is highest pitch level and (same) flat 1 to 1 (Mandarin tone)
2 is mid and (full rising) to highest pitch level 3 to 1 (Mandarin tone) (Sound like being surprised)
3 is mid pitch level and (same) flat 3 to 3 (Cantonese tone)
4 is mid and pitch drops a little 4 to 5 (Sounds like a sigh)
5 is lowest pitch and (cut off rising) 5 to 3 (deeper pitch)
6 is low and pitch (same) flat 4 to 4 (Cantonese)

"Using" tone 2 and 5 both "being" "rising" tones "sounding" very similar is how foreigners hack the language, also by not "differentiating" tone 3 and 6, both "being" flat the difference is very minor.

"Having" three parts to a "Jyupting" for example:
The 'Initial' part one stand alone (for instance) w+
The 'final' part (for instance) ing+
The 'number' (from 1 to 6) 5

The six tones:
https://cantonese.ca/sounds/6tones.wav

"Putting" all three parts put together makes a word w+ing+5 = wing5 = forever
Words can be made with out the first 'initial' and just use the final part with a number example: oi3 = love.

Sampling of "ing"(s) from the Cantonese alphabet system Jyutping that uses 6 tones (Pinyin however uses 9 tones)


Initial + final "ing"+ tone number:

bing1

ping1

ming1

fing 1

ding1

ting1

ning1

ling1

ging1

king1

hing1

gwing1

Example:

Wing1 = throw, hurl, abandon
Wing2
Wing3
Wing4 = honour, vanity, glory, thriving, honourable, salamander, turban shell
Wing5 = always, "everlasting", perpetual, eternal
Wing6 = water, "swimming" chant, in tone, sing, glum, tip, "outstanding", dive, swim

zing1

cing1

sing1

jing1

"Pronunciating" "ing" correctly is with a silent 'g' sounding with a long nasal 'inn'

Cantonese "having" many (Homophones) words that sound the same is where the 6 numbers "representing" a tones come in to use, as "adding" tones reduces the amount of Homophones needed.

"Using" a normal tone of voice:
1 "being" the high level tone of voice (sound sustained)
3 "being" the medium level tone of voice (sounds robotic)
6 "being" the low level deep tone of voice (sounds robotic)

2 "being" the medium "rising" tone (sounds like questioning)
4 "being" the low tone "falling" tone (sounds depressed or like a statement)
5 "being" the low tone "rising" (sounds sarcastic)

"Considering" by language researchers, there are 3 other Cantonese tones (similar to the flat tones but making them sound cut off or shorter in length) tones are final K.T.P ik, it, ip, with 3 options to be used, high (1) medium (3) low (6)
Where ip6 is used combined with y, as to make Yip6 Man6 or the 'Y' not being used and just the final 'Ip6'' is used; (Man6 = to ask)

More information on Cantonese use of tones https://cantonese.ca/tones.php

Cantonese Alphabet:

INITIALS are at the front of the word: b p m f d t n l g k ng h gw kw w z c s j
FINALS are at the end of the word.

For Example "e'' being a final: be pe me fe de ne le ge ke he ze ce se je

Many finals can also be a word which have been added first to each list below.

This list is the complete (all Cantonese words) Jyutping Romanisation alphabet and combined in to words, without tone number indicators:

i : mi di ti ni li wi zi ci si ji
ip : dip tip nip lip gip kip hip zip cip sip jip
it : bit pit mit dit tit nit lit git kit ngit hit zit cit sit jit
ik : bik pik mik dik tik nik lik gik gwik kwik wik zik cik sik jik
im : dim tim nim lim gim kim zim cim sim jim
in : bin pin min din tin nin lin gin kim hin zin cin sin jin
ing : bing ping ming fing ding ting ning ling ging king hing gwing wing zing cing sing jing
iu : biu piu miu diu tiu niu liu giu kiu hiu ziu ciu siu jiu
yu : zyu cyu syu jyu
yut : dyut tyut lyut gyut kyut zyut cyut syut jyut
yun : dyun tyun nyun lyun gyun kyun zyun cyun syun jyun
u : fu gu ku wu
ut : but put mut fut gut kut wut
uk: uk buk puk muk f u k duk tuk nuk luk guk kuk nguk huk zuk cuk s uk juk
un : bun pun mun fun gun wun
ung : ung bung pung mung fung dung tung nung lung gung kung ngung hung zung cung sung jung
ui : bui pui mui fui gui kui wui
e : e be pe me fe de ne le ge ke he ze ce se je
ep : gep
ek : bek pek dek tek lek kek hek zek cek sek
em : lem
eng : beng peng meng deng teng leng geng heng zeng ceng seng jeng
ei : ei bei pei mei fei dei nei lei gei zei hei sei
eu : deu
eot : deot neot leot
eon : deon teon leon zeon ceon seon jeon
eoi : deoi teoi neoi leoi geoi keoi heoi seoi jeoi
oe : doe toe goe hoe zoe
oek : doek loek goek koek zoek coek soek joek
oeng : doeng noeng loeng goeng koeng hoeng zoeng coeng soeng joeng
o : o bo po mo fo do to no lo go ko ngo ho gwo wo zo co so jo
ot : got hot
ok : ok bok pok mok fok dok tok nok lok gok kok ngok hok gwok kwok wok zok cok sok
on : on gon ngon hon
ong : ong bong pong mong fong dong tong nong long gong kong ngong hong gwong kwong wong zong cong song
oi : oi doi toi noi loi goi koi ngoi hoizoi coi soi
ou : ou bou pou mou dou tou nou lou gou ngou hou zou cou sou
ap : ap dap tap nap lap gap kap ngap hap zap cap sap jap
at : at bat pat mat fat dat tat nat lat gat kat ngat hat gwat wat zat cat sat jat
ak : ak bak pak mak dak lak gak kak ngak hak wak zak cak sak
am : am bam dam tam nam lam garm kam ngam ham zam cam sam jam
an : an ban pan man fan dan tan nan lan gan kan ngah han gwan kwan wan zan can san jan
ang : ang bang pang mang fang dang tang nang lang gang kang ngang hang gwang wang zang cang sang
ai : ai bai pai mai fai dai tai nai lai gai kai ngai hai gwai kwai wai zai cai sai jai
au : au bau pau mau fau dau tau nau lau gau kau ngau hau zau cau sau jau
aa : aa baa paa maa faa daa taa naa laa gaa kaa ngaa haa gwaa kwaa waa zaa caa saa jaa
aap : aap daap taap naap laap gaap kaap ngaap haap zaap caap saap
aat : aat baat paat maat faat taat naat laat gaat keet ngaat haat gwaat waat zaat caat saat
aak : aak baak paak maak faak daak laak gaak kaak ngaak haak gwaak waak zaak caak saak jaak
aam : aam daam taam naam laam gaam ngaam haam zaam caam saam
aan : aan baan paan maan faam daam taan naan laan gaan kaan ngaan haan qwaan kwaan waan zaam caan saam
aang aang baang paang maang laang gaang ngaang haang gwaang kwaang zaang caang saang
aai : aai baai paai maai faai daai taai naai laai gaai kaai ngaai haa1 gwaai kwaai waai zaai caai saai jaai
aau : aau baau paau maau naau gaau kaau ngaau haau zaau caau saau
m : m hm
ng : ng hng

Mastering one tone at a time; placing emphasis on the 1st tone indicator is a practical pragmatic approach, then continuing to 2nd tone and so on.

"Starting" off with listening to the first tones, of these words is a great beginning, the foundation to learning Cantonese https://www.cantoneseclass101.com/cantonese-alphabet

"Introducing"
Sentence Final Particles; SFP's
Added to the end of a sentence
The meaning of the sentence can be different
There are many SFP,s but here are just a few to illustrate how they work in a sentence
Example: hai6 nei5 = it's you/yours + sentence final particles

hai6 nei5 + aa3..........it's you! To tell news and to soften statements
hai6 nei5 + aa4..........it's you! Doesn't expect feeling a little disappointed
hai6 nei5 + me1.........it's you/yours? Bit surprised not sure
hai6 nei5 + ge2..........it's you? Suddenly shows up wants to know why sounding puzzled
hai6 nei5 + ne5..........it's you! Confirming that there is no mistake
hai6 nei5 + wo3.........it's you! Confirmation, can be interchangeable with ne5
hai6 nei5 + lo1...........it's yours! Replying it's yours and not others for obvious suggestions or conclusions
hai6 nei5 + lou3.........it's you! No one else's your turn "Next!"
hai6 nei5 + gaa4........it's yours? Thought it belonged to someone else
hai6 nei5 + laa1.........it's you! Discovering to be absolutely right, for requests and for not sounding rude
hai6 nei5 + gwaa3.....it's yours!  But not absolutely sure expressing doubt
hai6 nei5 + bo3........................it's yours! Evidence implies that it is
hai6 nei5 + gaa3 laa3...............it's you! Accept it and keep it as a matter of fact
hai6 nei5 + gaa3 zaa3..............it's only for you! Gift or service to express kindness
hai6 nei5 + laa3 gwaa3............it's yours? Alot more sure than not
hai6 nei5 + aa3 ho2..................it's yours? Asking for confirmation
hai6 nei5 + aa1 maa3...............it's yours? Sure that it is, but looking for a little more confirmation
hai6 nei5 + gaa3 laa1 maa3.....it's yours right? May take further action if not

For Emphasis = ge3
Particles ge3 comes first before other particles.

Contraction Of ge3 And aa3 = gaa3

For Downplaying The Importance Of A Situation, Only = ze1

For A Question = je4

Particles used in questions aa3, me1, ne1, maa3, always come last

Final Modal Particle
To Strengthen An Assertion Or Question = lai4 gaa2
To Remind, Inform, Suggest, Urge, Warn = lo3 bo3

More information on SFP's
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/essays/cantonese_particles.htm

"Borro-wing" and "Selecting" loan words, as in Cantonese (for example; ji6 lang5 = yelling) there are many from English, however "using" them for "Wing" Chun terminology purposes, in this area, sorry to say, that the "pickings" are slim to none existent.

"Combining" words from both English and Chinese is called Chinglish = zung1 gwok3 sik1 jing1 jyu5
not acceptable in the academic world of language; however "learning" and "speaking" English with a Hong Kong accent will help towards "refining" the finer points of using tones when "Communicating" in Cantonese.

By learning and understanding the Cantonese alphabet (then soon will reach the conclusion that it being different from English) missing some letters and sound equivalents makes it difficult for many native Cantonese to pronounce some English words; as this is what creates the Hong Kong accent.

"Bridging" a term often used in Wing Chun, now is the time to build and create another bridge from West to East that "being" with English and Cantonese.

"Having" three languages in Hong Kong is normal (tri lingual) with English and Mandarin being taught in school also "speaking" in the local "Cantonese" dialect.

"Visiting" Hong Kong "speaking" relying on English alone is not an issue to be understood by many Hong Kongers.

"Being" that Cantonese is (3000 years old) more ancient than Mandarin, "calling" Cantonese a dialect and not a language is highly controversial.

"Having" and "developing" a second language, is said to be "something" similar to "building" another spirit or having a second soul.

"Digging" for deeper "meanings" from "existing" "Wing" Chun terminology does require, time and patience similar to "excavating" an archaeological site.

"Probing" ever further "unravelling" "Wing" Chun's seemingly impossible and hidden secrets are to be found in "learning" the dialect/language of Cantonese.

"Stringing" English words in a sentence, in a monotone voice, then dropping down in tone to finish the sentence, is reasonable enough to explain how Hong Konger's speak English; as if to be avoiding the use of tones.

"Speaking" Cantonese to Express distress or anger, is simply achieved by using volume, talking louder.

"Singing" Melodious Sound, Rhyme, Charm = wan6 wan5
is another way to practice Cantonese, as it is after all a tonal language, that is possible, in expressing many emotions and feelings such as joy and sadness with melody.

Sing4 Lung4 (is also a trained opera singer)
Singing in Cantonese: https://youtu.be/5SLJJc8siyU
A good practicing Catonese song, same song with lyrics: https://youtu.be/GkaPrQMlkQk
Same song in English with Lyrics: https://youtu.be/yyeKoL1YvNs

"Using" tones are relative to sentences, as everyone has their unique way of talking with a high, low or deep voice, it is staying consistent throughout the sentence that matters most; as the first word sets the tone for the rest of the words in the sentence.

"Practising" with Cantonese tongue twisters, as "everything" will seem like this at the "beginning" is how to become confident in talking Cantonese.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNY9r1UkNm4

"Finding" phrases that you are already confident with and reading them out loud, then to use Corresponding tone numbers with new phrases, is one way of many in "developing" further.

Learning Cantonese phrases is recommended over individual words in the beginning, while paying particular attention to the tones used.

Sticking strictly to Cantonese at first and not to be swayed away in to Mandarin or other dialects is advised as this will cause unnecessary problems learning.

There are many different dialects in China something like 50 of them, therefore becoming acquainted with one is enough to deal with.

Cantonese has alot of slang to play around with, some of it is very funny, worth looking in to.

There are plenty of Apps and Videos to practice conversational Cantonese with, before long Knowing a few words and developing from there.

Every journey to climb a mountain starts with a few simple steps, little by little, step by step your understanding of Cantonese will reach higher.

The trick to learning Cantonese is to use it in daily living (a few minutes or hours every day) which could be by imagining living in Hong Kong.

Talking in Cantonese is the main point, therefore listening and repeating and understanding what has been said could be your main focus.

There are plenty of Apps that have radio stations from Hong Kong worth listening to, which will help in differentiating the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin.

Find a Cantonese restaurant in your neighbourhood if possible.

Watch movies and TV shows in Cantonese.

Find a video that has (let's say 25 Cantonese words) new words and pronunciation, learn them all, then find another and repeat the process.

How to learn foreign languages: https://youtu.be/7gXFP2lB3Nw

Compiling a simple shopping list in Cantonese.
Travelling on public transportation.
Ordering Cantonese food in restaurants.
Asking for prices when shopping.
Going to the doctors or hospital.
Counting in Cantonese.
Telling the time.
Knowing the: days, weeks and months of the year.
Important cultural events and holidays.
Greetings and farewells.
Asking for help and directions.
Expressing simple feelings.
Giving and receiving simple commands.
Giving and taking compliments.
Making friends with light conversations.
Practice singing in Cantonese to your favourite songs if possible, starting with tone indicators: https://youtu.be/f6igVfezNgk
Now without tone indicators: https://youtu.be/qOODX5iRzag

Like all languages they are constantly changing and evolving, Cantonese is no exception, with modern slang moving in and older ways of expressing fading out.

Cantonese slang and creative poetic ways of saying things are very much alive, with many humorous connotations, not covered here just yet.

Have not covered or introduced food or cooking in to this topic, primarily as it is going off topic, however cooking strategies and fighting strategies go hand in hand and will hopefully elaborate more on this aspect at a later date.

"Starting" with tone 1 words, then tone 2 words and so on, "developing" a knack for talking in Cantonese; as not all Cantonese speakers use tones as well as they should.

"Getting" a reaction from native speakers is a lot of fun, usually a look of surprise at the Initial stage of saying something In Cantonese, "combining" what is being said with a Hong Kong accent, only adds to the occasion.

To be able to talk generally with more Chinese people then Mandarin is preferred due to being the official language of China.

Cantonese having less speakers than Mandarin and not needing to go far afield than Hong Kong, for Wing Chun terminology purposes then practising with and focusing on only Cantonese is suitable.

Mandarin having only four tones while Cantonese has six or nine when not forgetting the other three, is easier to speak.

Cantonese still uses traditional characters in writing where Mandarin characters have been simplified.

While on the subject of Chinese characters how well do you suppose the locals are at identify and using them; a foreigner putting them to the test: very humorous: https://youtu.be/HQh1_zyig1M

Learning Cantonese or Mandarin in a formal classroom setting by qualified teachers is the best way to learn.

However the alternative is to prepared to explore and experience in a street wise fashion is not for everyone, as there is no diploma or certificate to hang on a wall.

My suggestion is to be 50/50 Academic and Streetwise.

The academic part is to save on relearning grammar mistakes and gaining a foundation and confidence.

The streetwise part is to be in the moment, the now, out of the classroom and in to the world, interacting and participating with people, learning and growing from the experiences.

Wing Chun having it's own TV series (spoken in Cantonese with English subtitles) called, no other than, "Wing Chun" https://youtu.be/zMXg5H37hhc

This is part of a larger topic: The "ing" in Wing Chun Kung Fu
https://www.karateforums.com/post560078.html#560078

Jyut Ping Greetings Expressions Wing Chun Terminology Part 2 Of This Topic.
https://www.karateforums.com/jyut-ping-terms-pt2-wing-chun-way-vt52690.html

TBC
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