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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan! |
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Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan, or any other "Title"!
Do we actually need these Titles for Non Japanese or Korean or Chinese Etc "Masters" of the arts, Heads of Styles etc?
I don't really feel the need for them, I can't comment on Korean or Chinese Arts (I hope someone can add details for me), But i believe Titles are only Valid if awarded IN Japan, Not Self-Awarded because they were a Senior Grade in the style they broke away from then gave themselves a 10th Dan type stuff.
To me Master/Sir, Sensei, Teacher, Sifu, Sa Bum Nim should be enough!
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Honestly don't see why any title is necessary. I have my students call me Bill. Have for years. And I still, somehow, am respected. Perhaps because respect is earned...not bestowed in a title.
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"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius." |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan! |
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| Dobbersky wrote: |
Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan, or any other "Title"!
I don't really feel the need for them, I can't comment on Korean or Chinese Arts (I hope someone can add details for me), But i believe Titles are only Valid if awarded IN Japan, Not Self-Awarded because they were a Senior Grade in the style they broke away from then gave themselves a 10th Dan type stuff. |
In the style of TKD I do we don't really have them. We have are the equivalents of (assistant) teacher, master and grandmaster but these titles go with rank rather than awarded based on some other criteria. Some Korean systems also use kwanjang nim for the head of the school and/or possibly jangsa nim for chief instructor but I don't think you'll find as many terms.
I disagree. Something like Kancho (head of the school?*) can be self-awarded. Ignoring whether the person is qualified enough or holds high enough rank to create their own system, I think a term like Kancho, Kaicho or Soke is appropriate as you are the leader or you are the founder of the system. It might not be necessary to have such titles when its just you and a relatively small school, but say you had a number of instructors below you and a whole network of schools, then I think a title conferring leadership is pretty appropriate. As much as we'd like there to be completely no politics in martial arts, a clear hierarchy is sometimes quite useful and a title like Kancho or Kaicho clearly marks who is in charge.
This does raise the question of whether you should be using Japanese titles outside of Japan but I think if your martial art is inherently Japanese/Okinawan and you wish to train in that language, then why shouldn't you use these terms?
*(btw, if someone could explain the difference between Kancho and Kaicho to me as if I'm an idiot I'd be grateful  My Japanese terminology isn't very good and I get mixed up between the two!)
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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vantheman
Blue Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan! |
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| Dobbersky wrote: |
| To me Master/Sir, Sensei, Teacher, Sifu, Sa Bum Nim should be enough! |
In my school that's all we have! Mr., Mrs., Sir, Sensei, Master, and occasionally grandmaster. That's all you really need in my opinion.
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Van |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan! |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Dobbersky wrote: |
Kaicho, Kancho, Soke, Dai Soke, Shihan & Dai Shihan, or any other "Title"!
I don't really feel the need for them, I can't comment on Korean or Chinese Arts (I hope someone can add details for me), But i believe Titles are only Valid if awarded IN Japan, Not Self-Awarded because they were a Senior Grade in the style they broke away from then gave themselves a 10th Dan type stuff. |
In the style of TKD I do we don't really have them. We have are the equivalents of (assistant) teacher, master and grandmaster but these titles go with rank rather than awarded based on some other criteria. Some Korean systems also use kwanjang nim for the head of the school and/or possibly jangsa nim for chief instructor but I don't think you'll find as many terms.
I disagree. Something like Kancho (head of the school?*) can be self-awarded. Ignoring whether the person is qualified enough or holds high enough rank to create their own system, I think a term like Kancho, Kaicho or Soke is appropriate as you are the leader or you are the founder of the system. It might not be necessary to have such titles when its just you and a relatively small school, but say you had a number of instructors below you and a whole network of schools, then I think a title conferring leadership is pretty appropriate. As much as we'd like there to be completely no politics in martial arts, a clear hierarchy is sometimes quite useful and a title like Kancho or Kaicho clearly marks who is in charge.
This does raise the question of whether you should be using Japanese titles outside of Japan but I think if your martial art is inherently Japanese/Okinawan and you wish to train in that language, then why shouldn't you use these terms?
*(btw, if someone could explain the difference between Kancho and Kaicho to me as if I'm an idiot I'd be grateful My Japanese terminology isn't very good and I get mixed up between the two!) |
Danielle,
Within Shindokan; Kaicho means President and Kancho means Vice-President. The word "Kaicho" was chosen by our Soke, and the word "Kancho" was chosen by our Dai-Soke.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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For each Shindokanist, Titles, as described in the OP, have always been a big part of our/my martial arts training. Our titles mean nothing, and they shouldn't mean anything, to anyone outside of Shindokan. Our titles are ONLY USED DURING FORMAL SETTINGS. That was decreed by our Soke and Dai-Soke; therefore, titles are used appropriately 24/7.
It's not wrong, imho, because our Soke and Dai-Soke were both born and raised in Okinawa, and for the student body to expect them to change across the board isn't possible or sensible. They are who and what they are, and in that, the entire student body respects them wholeheartedly and sincerely; and they have earned our respect.
What other language(s) should our Soke and Dai-Soke kowtow to besides their own native tongue? To say that their English is terrible wouldn’t be far off. It’s choppy, it’s unclear, and it’s not understood at times. That’s not important to us, but what’s important is that we respect their culture. They may not have mastered the English language, but what’s clear to us, their students, is that they’ve mastered their martial arts, especially Shindokan. The two cultures seem to work in harmony.
Whenever I'm on the floor for class I don't require, nor would I allow, any Shindokan student to address me and/or any hierarchy member by our OFFICIAL TITLES. To me, that's inappropriate! Here, and in any informal setting...my name is Bob, that's all, nothing more. When I trained with Brian [Bushido_man96] last summer, we only called each other by our first names because it was appropriate and I know I wouldn’t have allowed it any other way, and I’m quite sure, Brain wouldn’t have allowed it any other way either.
| Quote: |
| To me Master/Sir, Sensei, Teacher, Sifu, Sa Bum Nim should be enough! |
To me the bold names above should only be valid and/or used in Japan/Korea/China. If so, they shouldn’t be used either.
I don't think I should have to apologize for upholding the only practice(s) that we, students of Soke and Dai-Soke, have always known and practiced. It seems quite natural for us. I don't use our Official Titles disrespectfully, nor do I use them to make me seem more important than any man/woman/boy/girl. No. I use them because our Soke and Dai-Soke taught us many things besides just Shindokan.
For me to address Soke and Dai-Soke any other way in a formal setting, is a sign of disrespect to them across the board. In an informal setting, I've always addressed either of them by their first names or their last name ending with 'Sensei', and that's because of it just being a habit that's ingrained in my speech.
I address Soke and Dai-Soke here at KF, for example, for the simple reason...RESPECT!!
I ‘m addressed as Kaicho in all formal setting while performing the duties of my office because it's been decreed to do so in our By-Laws, and I will obey the wishes and commands of our Soke and/or Dai-Soke. It’s for the respect for the office, and nothing more. For example, I don't think that most people would address the President of the United States by his first name, no, and that’s because one respects the office. A captain wouldn’t address any of his/her superiors by their first name, no, and that’s because one respects the office. A captain salutes a major because the salute isn’t for the man/woman, no, it’s for the rank. Formality should be everything whenever it’s due and appropriate.
In what way does our formality offend? How is our formality hurting anybody? How does our formality upset anyone?
If I’ve offended and/or hurt and/or upset anyone, then my decision will be clear.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm uncomfortable being anything but Bill, or maybe Sensei Bill. But, every group has their own thing.
I do think the Japanese will be upset when they find out they have to go to the U.K. to be coach, head coach, or president of their boxing club.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterPain wrote: |
I'm uncomfortable being anything but Bill, or maybe Sensei Bill. But, every group has their own thing.
I do think the Japanese will be upset when they find out they have to go to the U.K. to be coach, head coach, or president of their boxing club. |
Dude! Don't tell them! Angry Japanese boxing sensei storming the dojo..err gym in there shorts...Gi. Dang it, now I'm doing it too. (Sorry, had to have a bit of fun)
For me it all comes down to tradition and comfort. If your lines tradition is to use titles, or not, I'd stick with that. More over, if you aren't comfortable with a title, using or not, don't. That's all a matter of respect though. If I've earned the title and someone uses it, respectfully, cool. If I'd prefer not to be addressed by the title, that's respect as well.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine |
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RJCKarate
Orange Belt
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Australia
Styles: Matsubayashiryu Karatedo Kobujutsu, Yamaneryu Kobudo
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: |
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If you want the exact clarification of what Kancho and Kaicho are, here is the following:
Kan 館 means place/house
Kai 会 mean association
Cho 長 means head/chief
So, Kancho would mean 'Head of House (dojo)' this in Okinawa is generally used for the head of a dojo (/chief instructor). It can often be used interchangeably with dojocho and is generally what all owner of dojo in Okinawa are referred to as.
Kaicho would mean 'head of association' this in Okinawa is generally used for the head (figure or not) of the wider association. Generally, Kaicho would be considered higher.
I would, however, like to clarify that you don't generally address someone as the above when talking to them, you would call them sensei - this includes basically all titles: hanshi, kyoshi, renshi, shihan. Mind you, this is my experience from Okinawa arts, not saying it is gospel!
I think it would be strange to use the titles if you did not practice an art that aligned with the language that you were using (i.e. Japanese & karate). But, I do an Okinawan art, I dress in a gi, and I operate a dojo, so my students call me sensei.
Cheers,
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Reece Cummings
Kodokan Cummings Karate Dojo
5th Dan, Matsubayashiryu (Shorinryu) Karatedo Kobujutsu
1st Dan, Yamaneryu Kobudo |
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Liver Punch
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Translations are tricky things. Kancho, translating into English as "Head of House" would be interpreted by people where I'm from as "father" or more casually "dad." And while after a long time within a system, this is a somewhat appropriate relationship for one to have...I can't imagine coming in off the street and calling some guy "dad" while he punches my face in.
Even Sensei, when understood to mean "teacher," feels a little weird to my particular brand of English. Teacher is more reserved for an educator who teaches a lower level than college.
To me, in a non-sport martial art, "Instructor" seems to hold the same connotation in English as I'm told that "Sensei" does in Japanese. In a sport-based martial art, Coach seems to be a much more appropriate title.
Ultimately, I completely understand calling someone by a title from the art's home country, it makes things a little more universal. For those in an area where foreign visitors aren't common, and a need to appeal to the masses is greater...then perhaps common language is more appropriate.
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on the post.
