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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:39 am Post subject: Karate dropped from Paris 2024 Olympics |
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We haven't even seen Karate make its debut at the Olympics in Tokyo 2020 yet it's now been dropped from Paris 2024.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-olympics-karate-idUKKCN1QB1NP
Given people were divided over its inclusion, is this a good thing or a bad thing for Karate?
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I must admit I felt its inclusion in 2020 was part and parcel of the politics of the Olympics. I did not expect it to survive past this initial inclusion: it is not the first sport to have been included in an upcoming Olympic Games, and then be dismissed before its debut from the following. It probably will not be the last either.
I suspect the failure for the sport to do much to differentiate itself from Tae Kwon, on a superficial level, is why this decision has been made. Karate has appeal in Japan for a home crowd, but this would not prove true in Paris 2024. Breakdancing will probably suffer the same fate because of similar politics.
I believe it is a bad thing for those who have a passion for the Sport, but as I have said elsewhere, I do not think it will have much of an effect on practitioners of Kakutogi Karate and Reality-Based Self-Defence. The spheres both worlds travel in are completely different.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| For karate as a sport and as a traditional system of self-defense it is the best possible outcome. Competition karate is as diverse as the more traditional or self-defense oriented systems. Each has a different focus and both should be allowed to continue separately . If karate were to become a true Olympic sport, that hegemony of sport would spell the end of karate as a self-defense system. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:21 am Post subject: |
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I hate to be that guy, but I don’t get all the heartbreak from the organizers.
Karate is not a permanent sport in the Olympics. Every host country is allowed a few sports that aren’t permanent, and Japan choose karate as one of them. The organizers know this better than I do, yet they’re complaining that a 1 time temporary addition isn’t becoming more than that? Especially before it gets its initial shot? It seems to me like they’re insulting people’s intelligence and hoping a public outcry will sway the Paris committee. They have no leg to stand on.
Now if it does ridiculously well from a viewer standpoint, the Paris committee might take another look, but it’s highly unlikely that they’ll want to include it even if it goes well.
If it does very well in Japan, the WKF (or whoever’s in charge) will have lobbying power and should go after the IOC to make it permanent and not worry about France being nice and allowing it even though they’re under no obligation. France has their own stuff they want included, and that’s the right of every host nation/city.
Think about it: the WKF knows full well it’s a temporary event and is upset that the next host doesn’t want it but instead wants something else. They haven’t proven anything yet to anyone as far as its viability. A bit absurd if you ask me. Sure it’s their job to promote and market karate on a worldwide stage, but this sounds more like whining than anything else. They know the rules. Instead of complaining about this, they should focus on making sure it’s viewed by the maximum number of people so it can’t be ignored.
Furthermore, they really messed up by making it point fighting rather than knockdown like Kyokushin. Knockdown would’ve made differentiating karate from TKD far easier to the layperson IMO. What we have with the WKF rules is TKD without the emphasis on kicking in the layperson’s eyes at best. There’s not enough room for two sports that appear on the outside to be so similar. |
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 727
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
Furthermore, they really messed up by making it point fighting rather than knockdown like Kyokushin. Knockdown would’ve made differentiating karate from TKD far easier to the layperson IMO. What we have with the WKF rules is TKD without the emphasis on kicking in the layperson’s eyes at best. There’s not enough room for two sports that appear on the outside to be so similar. |
Agree, too close to TKD, there's plenty of Olympic "combat" sports already. I think that in this day and age of "all violence is bad", "diversity" etc it would be very difficult to imagine the IOC accepting knockdown karate, especially for the female athletes. Boxing for example, I bet they would love to get rid of it too.
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulltahr wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
Furthermore, they really messed up by making it point fighting rather than knockdown like Kyokushin. Knockdown would’ve made differentiating karate from TKD far easier to the layperson IMO. What we have with the WKF rules is TKD without the emphasis on kicking in the layperson’s eyes at best. There’s not enough room for two sports that appear on the outside to be so similar. |
Agree, too close to TKD, there's plenty of Olympic "combat" sports already. I think that in this day and age of "all violence is bad", "diversity" etc it would be very difficult to imagine the IOC accepting knockdown karate, especially for the female athletes. Boxing for example, I bet they would love to get rid of it too. |
I think this reeks of politics, how can a sport get dropped from the olympics before it's even debuted?
I am not sure I mind, though. Being an olympic sport arguably did a lot of damage to WTF taekwondo, right? Many school focus on the tippy-tappy stuff now, and their fundamentals or even the actual applicability of their techniques has suffered greatly.
Also, karate schools would die off in time because many people would want to go to a school that teaches the "olympic karate", whatever style that would be...
So, I am divided on it |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Good or bad thing for Karate??
Depends on who's being asked: Competitors, Governing Bodies, Karateka's, and/or the layperson. This news is both celebration as well as downtrodden all at the same time, but once again, depends on who's being asked.
Traditionalists might be celebrating because they despise Karate being called a sport, for any reason by anyone. Karate Sports enthusiastic minded MAist might feel betrayed with their rug having been pulled out from under them before their moment under both the spotlight and microscope.
As in anything, time will tell if it'll affect Karate, but I'm sure that either side of the fence will want their chosen loyalty to be respected.
Me, I don't care one way or another!!
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulltahr wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
Furthermore, they really messed up by making it point fighting rather than knockdown like Kyokushin. Knockdown would’ve made differentiating karate from TKD far easier to the layperson IMO. What we have with the WKF rules is TKD without the emphasis on kicking in the layperson’s eyes at best. There’s not enough room for two sports that appear on the outside to be so similar. |
Agree, too close to TKD, there's plenty of Olympic "combat" sports already. I think that in this day and age of "all violence is bad", "diversity" etc it would be very difficult to imagine the IOC accepting knockdown karate, especially for the female athletes. Boxing for example, I bet they would love to get rid of it too. |
Funny thing is Matsui (Kaicho/Kancho of Kyokushin IKO1) backed the WKF and their rules. Every other Kyokushin IKO and offshoots was very angry about that. IKO1 is the Mas Oyama lineage that didn’t break off; the ones who hold the biggest Kyokushin open tournament. Very, very odd that they back the WKF over knockdown rules. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| For karate as a sport and as a traditional system of self-defense it is the best possible outcome. Competition karate is as diverse as the more traditional or self-defense oriented systems. Each has a different focus and both should be allowed to continue separately . If karate were to become a true Olympic sport, that hegemony of sport would spell the end of karate as a self-defense system. |
I honestly don’t think it’ll have that big an impact if it went to a regular event rather that the demonstration event it currently is. Karate is well rooted and the history is pretty deep. There’s far too many traditionalists to just go away.
TKD wasn’t nearly as rooted when it debuted. And there are still many “traditional TKD” schools out there. Many use the “Korean Karate” name, Tang Soo Do, Moo Duck Kwan, etc. rather than outright calling themselves TKD.
And if sport karate really takes off, I highly doubt any of our dojos will be under any realistic threat of disappearing. I could be wrong, but I don’t see my teacher changing what he’s doing to bring in more students. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| RW wrote: |
| Bulltahr wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
Furthermore, they really messed up by making it point fighting rather than knockdown like Kyokushin. Knockdown would’ve made differentiating karate from TKD far easier to the layperson IMO. What we have with the WKF rules is TKD without the emphasis on kicking in the layperson’s eyes at best. There’s not enough room for two sports that appear on the outside to be so similar. |
Agree, too close to TKD, there's plenty of Olympic "combat" sports already. I think that in this day and age of "all violence is bad", "diversity" etc it would be very difficult to imagine the IOC accepting knockdown karate, especially for the female athletes. Boxing for example, I bet they would love to get rid of it too. |
I think this reeks of politics, how can a sport get dropped from the olympics before it's even debuted?
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It has absolutely nothing to do with politics. Each host nation is allowed I believe 4-6 “demonstration sports.” I don’t know the technical term nowadays though. Those sports are temporary, meaning they’re one and done by design. If a demonstration sport does very well, the IOC will contemplate making it a permanent sport. There’s a ton of factors in that though - viewership numbers and revenue generated, how well the sport is organized, how well it fits into their views of Olympic sports, etc. And there’s only so much room, so it’ll end up replacing something; what should it replace? And there’s a lot more to it than that.
Host countries typically include games/sports that are native to them and also sports that have a ton of national popularity. Karate being an Olympic sport in Tokyo is a no-brained under this criteria.
I’m sure Paris has some stuff they want to include. Why should they do karate any favors? They’ve only got a handful of sports they can include that’ll suffer the same fate as every demonstration sport Japan has included.
No one’s “dropping” karate. Karate was never on the slate for Paris to begin with. No one said “karate won’t do well, so let’s replace it with X.” It’s simply a matter of the IOC saying “These are the sports to be played. Include any 5 other sports you choose.” Of course there’s far more to it than that, but I think you understand what I’m getting at. You can’t cut something that wasn’t there to begin with. And that’s my issue with the above linked article. They’re trying to cause drama when none existed. |
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on the post.
