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pinoy_1
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 53
Location: Bahrain
Styles: kyudokan shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: KARATE VS JIU JITSU Reply with quote

Yes, it really is a big question.. some of the techniques in kata are for grappling. Why not consider jiu jitsu, since there are no kata.. there's no need of bunkai.. and in jiu-jitsu black belts are teaching the techniques directly.

So which one?? your take guys..
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hangetsu123
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 20


PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One must take note that karate's grappling waza is all together different than jujitsu. having delved deeply into wushu/quan fa, I've found the commonality between karate and Chinese grappling are much closer.... than say jujitsu and karate. Imo this is the reason is why much of bunkai out there in the public eye doesn't make sense. Everyone knows karate's history is based on Okinawan and Southern quan fa..... so why do people look to judo, jujitsu etc... (main land Japanese arts) for there answers on grappling bunkai.??? Many of the more obscured movements in kata become clear just by poking around in shuai jiao ..,. yes jujitsu is a great art.... but from what ive found it doesn't answer many of the grappling bunkai question that I've had.... Chinese arts on the other hand have.... (mainly. shuai jiao and change quantum)
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tallgeese
KF VIP

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6862
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First up, I assuming that you're talking about Japanese jiu jitsu, the standing variety. The idea of joint manipulation in kata from a standing position (hence JJJ not BJJ) is the most defensible position.

Now, I assume based on the content of the post, that it's really more of a question on how to best learn joint position rather than what art does it better. As another side note, it's probably always going to be best to look at whichever art really focuses on the aspect of combat you're most interested in.

For example, lots of arts have some sort of short stick work. Lots of it is good. If you want to be better in that than anything else and really only want to learn that, then it'd be best to find an art that does that as it's primary method of combat (ie. escrima or such).

As to best how best to learn joint manipulation, kata vs. direct to technique, I prefer direct to technique. It cuts out a step that takes time and does not immediately transfer to use in combat. Due to this, I think that just about any tactic contained in kata can be taught faster, and this be closer to actual application, by simply working the tactic without an artificial pattern assigned.

I argue this to some length in the "Karate without Kata" thread:

http://www.karateforums.com/karate-without-kata-vt42353.html

While not specific to joint manipulation in kata, it's a discussion that might have some overlap into your question.
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Jissen
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Mar 2012
Posts: 26
Location: Altamont, Illinois
Styles: Jissen Kempo Jujutsu (a name I coined to refer to all of the things I do, nothing more, or less.)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Tuite in karate is not so different than that taught in Jujutsu. The body movement is different but a joint lock is a joint lock.

Kata is a great tool for remembering the lessons associated with it. as well as practicing "quality of movement" without a partner.

Karate when taught in its entirety is a great art for teaching equal emphasis on striking, and locking/throwing. I don't view karate as a striking art, I view it as a do what needs to be done art.

Never met a jujutsu instructor (who doesnt also study a striking art) who could teach the finer points of striking however. It's more of a specialized art, for good reason.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15511
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great points across the board everyone...great topic.


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