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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree with a lot of it. But it was a good article. Seems it was written by someone who only knows the way kata is practiced in Japan (mainland). I prefer to study it like Okinawans did (and still do). |
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CW
White Belt
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 11
Location: Jackson, TN
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Well written G95champ. I would say that 90% of my student enjoy breaking down the moves of our katas more than sparring  . When I was learning how to do Bunkai I felt like a chicken running around with his head cut off at first. I think a lot of people don't like kata because when they try to figure out what is going on in a kata, it is hard and they give up too easily. If a person will keep trying and trying to figure out what the bunkai is of katas, it will CLICK one day and kata will take on a whole new light. At my school we have a fun time trying to figure out the strikes, grapples, pressure points and etc. of the katas. I have learned things from my lower belts, doing bunkai because they keep it simple and as a 4th degree, I sometimes try to be too technical on things. If everyone will give bunkai of kata a try and not give up on it, I think they would really like it |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| CW wrote: |
| I would say that 90% of my student enjoy breaking down the moves of our katas more than sparring |
Why don't they spar with the moves from the kata?
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| When I was learning how to do Bunkai I felt like a chicken running around with his head cut off at first. I think a lot of people don't like kata because when they try to figure out what is going on in a kata, it is hard and they give up too easily. |
And this is the sad state karate training is in today. In Okinawan styles and some (very few) Japanese styles, the bunkai is taught to you by your instructor! There's no need to run around in circles wondering what the hack... When Kyan Chotoku designed his kata, he had a specific bunkai for it, he put everything there for a reason. Then he taught that bunkai and the reasoning to his students. His students didn't try to guess what he meant - he told them. The kata was just a way for them to not forget any of it later. Some of his students designed their own kata and same happened, they taught their students how to open it, they didn't teach them the kata and then say "try to guess what I meant". In any good style, the organization's official syllabus/curriculum will have the official bunkai openly taught to each student. If this isn't the case in your style, but you have to guess your way through it, then you know that in your style, the WW2 did some serious damage. Then either study another style, or study some seminars/books/videos on bunkai (it is better to at least start with expert guidance before starting to search for your own interpretations), or just accept the fact that your kata is empty as far as bunkai is concerned.
And one more thing, the reason I say "don't try to invent or interprete yourself unless you already know enough to call yourself an expert" is because the original kata (now I'm talking about traditional fighting kata here) was designed by real life combat experts. If you aren't one, don't try to pretend to be one.
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ShotosChaos
White Belt
Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 6
Location: Gilbert, WV
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Excellent article, I agree that kata is more than a performance art. Kata is something that you can do whenever you find time, but you must know the proper application of the kata before it is of any use. Once you've discovered all things that you can do with it, the help it gives when sparring or defending is great. |
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Sasori_Te
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Near Akron Ohio
Styles: Kempo and Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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I am a kata convert, and as we all know there's nothing worse than listening to someone who's been reformed. My early dislike of kata was due more to my first instructors weakness in teaching. He didn't know the kata bunkai or oyo so he made up very simple bunkai that would make himself look good. Unfortunately he's not alone in his deception. The only fault I can find with your article is that it doesn't give kata enough credit. Kata is the living history of the martial arts as it evolved from China to Okinawa, Japan and Korea. I do happen to disagree that you need to be a combat expert to break down kata. I do believe that you have to have an extremely firm grasp on the basic movements, the ability to visualize an opponent for proper focus and enough knowledge through proper study to have insight into what the the kata could mean (oyo). That's the beauty of kata. It can be everything, nothing or something in between. Kata is what makes karate yours. No two people do a kata the exact same way and that's as it was meant to be. I do believe that I'm rambling ..... Sorry.
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Last edited by Sasori_Te on Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shazaam
Yellow Belt
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 94
Styles: Kickboxing, Karate, Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well said!
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fragbot
White Belt
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:25 pm Post subject: My thoughts |
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Before I start, I actually enjoy and practice kuen.
| G95champ wrote: |
There has been much debate in recent history over the usage of Kata as a modern training took in the Martial Arts. In this article I will attempt to justify the importance of Kata not only to Karate, but to Martial Arts as a whole. Kate is the fundamental training method that can used by anyone at any time at any age and with as much individual freedom as one wishes to use. Therefore, making the Martial Arts an Art and not a Science.
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This is fundamentally untrue. Since proof by contradiction only takes one, I'll choose yiquan.
Put less formally, the previous paragraphs assumes you need kata for a martial art. This ignores systems that don't have forms.
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Lets look at traditional Kata as taught in many of the traditional dojo’s. This is where many people see Kata as out dated and not of any major value in modern society. With that said I will make the argument now that Kata is more important in modern society than it ever was in pre-World War II society. Why you ask? In modern society hard-core training like they did 100 years ago is not possible. Many things factor into this such as lack of time, work, laws, and simply the fact you can’t afford to run students off by doing full contact sparring every class. What Kata gives Karate students is a way to fight without fighting, just as Bruce Lee said, “A way without way.”
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Some premises you need to justify:
a) hard-core training like they did 100 years ago isn't possible
b) kata gives karate students a way to "fight without fighting"
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From my personal findings most people who attack Kata are non-karate stylists.
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I've noticed some of the people who hate forms have extensive experience in systems with forms.
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Meaning they have never been taught the meaning and importance of forms. Anyone can memorize a set number of moves and put them together and call it a Kata but only a true Martial Artist can examine and break down those moves to find another way or meaning behind them. Kata is where the Martial Arts allow one to grow.
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Your definition of "true Martial Artist" is self serving. Using your definition, anyone who's skilled at a system w/o forms isn't a true martial artist.
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Unlike sparring you do not need anyone but yourself to do Kata. Kata can be done in a dojo, in your bedroom, outside or in your mind without actually moving. I can not recall the countless times I laid in bed or set in class thinking of how to prefect a combination in any given form. Questions such as: “Why did Funakoshi choose a back-fist over a punch?” or “What was he trying to tell me when he used a back stance with this hand motion?” Kata allows us to ask why and come to many of our own answers. There is no right and wrong there is only the TAO, or the way.
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I agree the solo training aspect is a valuable quality of forms. However, I'd ask how you reconcile it with another oft-promulgated purpose of forms--as a catalogue of technique. If it's a catalogue then it should have one/multiple specific purposes. OTOH, if they're designed to encourage creativity, I'd then question how they can be a catalogue.
Throwing Daoist concepts in to a discussion of Japanese systems is unnecessarily muddlesome. . .since Buddhism and Shintoism were dramatically more prevalent.
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When I do any from I can choose to do it slow and focus on techniques or I can speed it up and focus on my cardio training. All at the same time I am working many of my basic techniques while getting combination practice that I would get while sparring but now I am not getting hit.
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Again, I agree you've illustrated some useful attributes of kata. Now, how do you tradeoff time doing forms versus, say, heavybag or makiwara work?
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Today many of the Mixed Martial Arts Community will attack Kata and say it is useless and outdated. What many of them fail to realize is that not all of us are training to fight.
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It's not just the MMA community that says this. As I stated earlier, I've heard experienced karatekas say the same thing*.
*I think your hyperbolize erected a strawman. I don't think they'd use the term "useless and outdated." Instead, I've often heard complaints along the lines of "yeah, it works over time. However, compared to your other training options, it's an inefficient way to train."
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The problem here lies in the persons search for the quick and simple answer.
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I sorta agree. That being said, if elegance is an important attribute of art, I'd argue simplicity is a crucial aspect to elegance in any endeavor. Furthermore, I'd argue simplicity is paradoxical. IMO, some of the simplest systems are principle based (eg "enter and turn"). These systems have simple principles that, in practice, are famously difficult.
[ ... a buncha stuff I agree with was elided ....]
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Kata is a love hate relationship for most of us. Either you like it or you don’t. In my personal findings those who like it tend to understand its purpose. Those who dislike it only view it as a fixed pattern they must memorize for their next belt. Much too often as teachers we let students by with just memorizing the motions.
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I think it's unreasonable to put this on the students in many cases. I think it's more likely that many teachers *don't know* the bunkai for the kata they teach. In fact, I've often read many speculations that many founders of Japanese karate systems didn't know much bunkai at all (Okinawan chauvinism?; prolly some).
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Although one doesn’t have to excel in it to be a great fighter, one will need to spend some time shadow boxing. Or is that Kata, too? |
I've seen that sentiment before, but I've never found it compelling.
============a question for discussion===============
From two people now (both are instructors for internal Chinese systems; AFAIK, they don't know each other), I've heard the following quote regarding training people to be proficient in TJQ:
"if he doesn't have to teach you, he'll teach you the form."
Any thoughts? |
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shazaam
Yellow Belt
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 94
Styles: Kickboxing, Karate, Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:48 pm Post subject: kuen |
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Fragbot, you are a Martial Arts god.
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Peace, Love, Harmony |
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okinawate
White Belt
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 3
Styles: okinawa karate & kobudo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
We have new article about okinawa karate on our web site.
I hope you will enjoy it.
48 techniques of okinawa karate part 4.
www.karate.org.yu
I would like to hear your oppinion.
Regards,
Stanic Milos
Tsunami dojo
Belgrade, Serbia
www.karate.org.yu
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Stanic Milos
Tsunami dojo - Belgrade
www.karate.org.yu |
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okinawate
White Belt
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 3
Styles: okinawa karate & kobudo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:04 am Post subject: Okinawa karate web site - bunkai |
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Hi,
We have new article about okinawa karate on our web site.
I hope you will enjoy it.
48 techniques of okinawa karate part 4.
www.karate.org.yu
I would like to hear your oppinion.
Regards,
Stanic Milos
Tsunami dojo
Belgrade, Serbia
www.karate.org.yu
_________________
Stanic Milos
Tsunami dojo - Belgrade
www.karate.org.yu |
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on the post.
