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jeffrogers
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 322
Location: Camp LaGuardia, Uijongbu, South Korea
Styles: BJJ, Hakutsuru (White Crane Karate), Shaolin Kenpo
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 Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I put it out because I thought it was interesting topic of Larry showing his technique's on to the ground. but every one states there opinion on here but I keep hearing reasons that don't make since. So I state mine. This is a forum to discuss martial arts stuff on.
-Jeff |
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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well, like many have said, he was demonstrating the kind of things you can do, not something that you really would do...
don't you think that if the attack was different, the 'reaction' would be different?
what he showed was a starting point.
you moved it on a bit by modifying the attack BUT you still refered to his original demonstration.
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ninjanurse
KF VIP
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 6154
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly-why would anyone wait for the attacker to get settled and throw a punch before taking action?
I do see your point jeff and I agree with your reasoning hoewever since no two opponents are the same, no single scenario applies to any fight or any technique and it is difficlut to criticize a single scenario based on such a varied application. All opinions here are certainly valid ones, and we must all remember that since Martial Arts are not "cut and dried" neither are our experiences in them. We should use the shopping cart method here: look at all the items in the store but only buy the ones you want and that you can use.
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"A Black Belt is only the beginning."
Heidi-A student of the arts
Tae Kwon Do,Shotokan,Ju Jitsu,Modern Arnis
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kempocos
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Styles: RYUKYU KEMPO,MODERN ARNIS, ISSHINRYU,
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well Larry DOES say this is what to do during a mounted ground and pound. Then shows a ineffective mount. Plus what is with pounding the uke the way he does. He has the guy throw slow punchs that would never land due to angle and distance then slams the guy. My take is he is arrogant and misleading on what it takes to apply standup techniques on the ground.. For all those who think that you can just apply the standup techniques on the ground, it takes alot of adjustment. If you do not practice the techniques without both sides resisting they will not work. Larry seems to be the only one allowed to go full out, His uke was standing there taking abuse , I would like to see someone really mount and throw punchs and see that technique work.
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"If you don't want to get hit while sparring , join the cardio class" |
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kotegashiNeo
Blue Belt
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 342
Location: Barrie Ontario Canada
Styles: goju/ Aikido
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Here here kempocos I concur wholeheartedly. He seems like a staunch traditionalist that beats up on his students and refuses to face the fact that his style may be missing a few elements.
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Kisshu fushin oni te hotoke kokoro |
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kempocos wrote: |
| Plus what is with pounding the uke the way he does. He has the guy throw slow punchs that would never land due to angle and distance then slams the guy... Larry seems to be the only one allowed to go full out, His uke was standing there taking abuse , I would like to see someone really mount and throw punchs and see that technique work. |
Again:
| delta1 wrote: |
Here's a statement from the guy who dummied for Mr. Tatum (taken from a Kenpo discussion):
"When we had practiced it before the taping I was indeed seated on his chest and with my knees on the mat. I nearly injured my self when I committed to the right punch and had his right knee in conjunction with his parry throw me nearly 15 feet. Let me tell you that even with me on his abdomen and actually trying to strike his face I was thrown. He was borrowing the force of my committed strike and momentum to toss me off him like a rag doll. We switched it up a bit so that it was safer for me to dummy." |
His uke did not throw the punch in a committed fashion because he didn't want to get stood on his nose any more. As for Mr. Tatum hitting hard, he allways does from what I've seen. His students volunteer for these spots and for his films. But if you are going to do Kenpo, you're going to get hit a lot harder than that. Like I said earlier, the end phase of learning this kind of thing is to pad up and go hard, seeing what works when and what doesn't. It won't work for every mount and pound situation- but there's only one way you are going to really know which ones it does and that's to do it.
For those that don't like this technique, there is still the point that you can find elements of your stand-up game to use on the ground. Concepts, principles, and even moves will transfer. But, you should probably look for them now, before you need them. If you can learn BJJ or something, that would be even better. Failing that, this kind of application is better than laying there and trying to cover. And, if you are into MMA, finding how those concepts and principles work together might improve both your stand up and ground game.
I'm not a member of Mr. Tatums organization, and they have a few different ideas to what I've been taught. But I do have a lot of respect for the man, so I usually at least try to get his point when he says something.
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jeffrogers
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 322
Location: Camp LaGuardia, Uijongbu, South Korea
Styles: BJJ, Hakutsuru (White Crane Karate), Shaolin Kenpo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay I understand your guys points. |
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kempocos
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Styles: RYUKYU KEMPO,MODERN ARNIS, ISSHINRYU,
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is not a slam on Larry or AMERICAN KENPO just this technique and clip. I do not see why he did not show the version this person claims he was part of. I still have to say that it proves nothing to the qualitiy of the technique if you slam someone who is moving that slow. I also stand by saying as Larry does " Just use your stand up techniques" is misleading becuase he does not mention in the clip the variuos things that change such as the abiltiy to angle the body and to use the whole body to deliver movement or strike, how to set a base for locks. I know well what KEMPO teachs I have been studing OKINAWIAN KEMPO for over 20 years and in OKINAWA ground work was always part of it. I stated that it takes pratice with resisting partnersw to learn what it takes to use your techniques to work on the ground. Larry simply states just use your stand up techniques and it is not that simple.
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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kempocos, no offense taken- I didn't think you were slamming AK.
As I understand it, the runs where he was seated and threw the punches were in practice and were not taped. This version was decided on because they have no control who watches this, or what the experience level they have. Safety was one consideration.
Again, this is a one minute clip about a tip- not a full grappling seminar. I didn't get that he meant you don't need to practice ground work. Just the opposite, I took it to be a hint to look for, and try out, some ways to move the stand up game to the ground. You won't ever take the Gracies out with this kind of thing. But against the average punk who does not know how to get a proper mount, it might give you a chance.
By the way, I don't know about Mr. Tatum's schools, but many AK schools do teach some kind of regular ground fighting classes. It is getting to be more common in all arts, at least around here, and I think it is a good thing. But our local 'ground guru' left the area (one of the drawbacks to living in a small town), so I'm still looking at this kind of application.
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jeffrogers
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 322
Location: Camp LaGuardia, Uijongbu, South Korea
Styles: BJJ, Hakutsuru (White Crane Karate), Shaolin Kenpo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| I hope the students can discern between when to use that technique and when not to. If they get mounted by a good grappler. they are in a for a rude awakening. Via KTFO! or something going snap! |
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on the post.
