Matsumura Seito Pinan Katas

Shojiko · Orange Belt

is it true Some Pinans (e.g pinan sandan, Pinan Godan etc) are not taught in Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu?

here is an excerpt from The World Budokan websot of George Alexander

"THE MATSUMURA KATA

The kata that Soken Sensei taught were pinan shodan, pinan nidan, naihanchi

shodan, naihanchi nidan, patsai-sho and dai, chinto, gojushiho, kusanku,

rohai ichi-ni-san, and the hakutsuru. According to Master Soken, “Hakutsuru is my favorite kata that I demonstrate–because it is easier to do. When I was young,

the best kata was the kusanku. This is the Matsumura kusanku–the older version that is not done much now.”

Zaine · Black Belt

This is true, though some versions teach a version of Pinan Sandan now. This addition seems to have come from either Combat Shorinji, the other style that Hohan Soken taught, or was an addition from Kise or Arakaki. Since my lineage is through Kise, I am given to believe that it was his addition.

In regards to the Kusanku kata, the version that I have seen performed, and that I myself perform, is a version of Kusanku Dai.

Another note, there are some additions to the kata list given by Alexander here that aren't mentioned on his website. For instance, the Naihanchi kata that we do are done with a Hachiji Dachi stance, instead of a traditional horse. The Kise lineage does not do 3 versions of Rohai anymore. Finally, the Passai kata that are done are the Toyama Passai versions of the kata, and appear quite different from the Matsumura and Itosu lineage Passais.
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Shojiko · Orange Belt

It's interesting to note that a dojo a few cities away teaches Matsumura through Seijun Kina (studied under Soken), and they teach all five Pinans at that school. What would one say if an individual holds a dan rank in matsumura but didn't know a few pinans for the reasons stated above and tried to join a school that teaches all 5 without looking like a fool?

Zaine · Black Belt

If it were me, I would just explain that the version of Matsumura-Seito that I learned did not have the missing Pinans. It's likely that they are aware that their training is a little different. If not, then they do now. If nothing else, I would be excited to learn new kata. If you're worried that the school might dispute your rank based on not knowing a couple of kata, then that school isn't worth your time.
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Shojiko · Orange Belt

its unfortunate as Matsumura dojos are rare to find.

Is there a specific reason Soken sensei withheld the other Pinan katas?

Zaine · Black Belt

Your telling me. The closest one to me is a little under 5 hours away. I wish my old teacher would start teaching again, but we'll see.

I've done a lot of research about MS and I am not aware of any specific reason that Soken did not include Pinan 3 - 5 within the curriculum. He certainly knew them from his time training with Shorinji, in which he held a high dan rank. My guess is that he only included the first 2 as training kata, and felt that the remaining 3 did not add enough to his system to warrant doing them over other choices.
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Shojiko · Orange Belt

thanks for the input Zaine, I told myself another iptiin can be to learn Kobayashi/Matsubayashi version of Sandan and Godan to fill those gaps lol

Zaine · Black Belt

I ended up learning the Shobayashi versions of those 2 kata to fill it. Learning Yondan is definitely recommended, as it has a sequence that is from Kusanku in it. Godan is fun to do, though doesn't really feed into other katas as well as the others.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.

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Montana · Pre-Black Belt

I started my Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito journey in January 1975 under Sensei Denny Miller. I tested and received my shodan from Sensei Kuda Yuichi in June, 1978 on his first trip to America.

The katas I learned from Sensei Miller and Sensei Kuda were
Pinan 1-5
Nahachin 1-3
Passai Sho and Dai
Chinto

Now, I have never met Sensei Alexander nor worked with any of his people. I understand from others that have that he is very arrogant and a "know-it-all" kind of guy, so I wouldn't get along with him anyway. Years ago I bought a few of his basic kata tapes to share with my students for their home studies, but found them flawed and very poor quality, and returned them
to him.

In order to return them, I called the number from ordering and spoke directly to Sensei Alexander. He accused me of copying the tapes and trying to rip him off, which I didn't do. I explained to him that his students doing the kata, IMO, were sloppy and not very good, and that really set him off on a rant! lol So anyway, my opinions on Sensei Alexander aren't that he is an authority on Matsumura Seito.
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scohen0300 · Member of the Month

That’s crazy!

I wonder, did he feel that Sandan, Yondan and Godan weren’t necessary because of Kusanku? Maybe he kept Shodan and Nidan because they tend to be a little more beginner friendly.
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