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Natural
Blue Belt
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 287
Location: Purley,Surrey,England
Styles: Renzokenkai-do, Taikyoku-ken
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 Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Not really,..........strike in ju-jit-su is a karate strike throws in ju-jit-su is Judo, locks, is judo and jujitsu , judo was born from jujitsu if a jujitsuka grabs a karateka and about to toss him, the karateka just grab the suits and knee him in the face for 5 times and he'll be bledding, If i were you i'll watch the true fight and you'll see that jujitsu does not always have the upper hand.
Thai boxer is not only capable in a ring they fight ground fight in northen thailand near lous.
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A karate punch it is like a dasvasted stick blow. Instead, a blow of Kung Was is comparable to a lash with a chain that has attacked, allaltra extremity one ball of ferro |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryLove wrote: |
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| Man you got it figured out, You should go Challenge mark Kerr or Mark coleman and make a name for yourself. |
I assume you mean to a street fight, not to a NHB match.
OTOH, do you do an art that you think is more complete than boxing? When will you be fighting Mike Tyson?
Perhaps a given individual does not need to be able to defeat another in order to have a better idea. There is certainly something to be said for size, strength, speed, endurance, skill level and experience. |
I was simply commenting on the fact that amp made it seem as if takedowns and any sort of grappling were easily countered by crotch biting and scratching.
I wouldent make a claim like "oh all you have to do is kick a boxer in the legs and you can beat any of them" While it's definetly possibel to play that game with a boxer it would depend on who could "play their game". |
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Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2279
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Boxing,Lars Wallin BJJ, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Natural said:
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Not really,..........strike in ju-jit-su is a karate strike throws in ju-jit-su is Judo, locks, is judo and jujitsu , judo was born from jujitsu if a jujitsuka grabs a karateka and about to toss him, the karateka just grab the suits and knee him in the face for 5 times and he'll be bledding, If i were you i'll watch the true fight and you'll see that jujitsu does not always have the upper hand.
Thai boxer is not only capable in a ring they fight ground fight in northen thailand near lous. |
You totally under estimate Jujitsu. If a true Jujitsuka has a Karateka and about to toss him, it's already to late. Jujitsu has some really good punching and kicking techniques as well. It all depends on what Jujitsu. We take your balance before we throw you, so unless you can knee and punch while falling, I'd like to see that technique. 
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"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Lock em out or Knock em out" |
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SevenStar
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Posts: 2631
Location: TN
Styles: bjj, judo, shuai chiao, muay thai
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| not necessarily - it depends on when the karateka reacts. it's a simple task in most cases to use your hip to jam his movement and thwart the throw. It's not hard to tani otoshi as a counter to any throw where the attacker must turn his back even slightly, etc. countering is only a matter of how fast you can react. You inititiating a throw hardly means that it's too late. |
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Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2279
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Boxing,Lars Wallin BJJ, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Must of our throws are not like Judo throw where we turn our back on the opponent. I do agree with you SevenStar that those types of throw can be countered fairly easily, because you kind of still have your balance. Must of the throws we do are done when your balance has been stolen from a strike or an envasion from an attack. The key is "Flow" and when techniques are done right it is very difficult to counter. It's when there is a pause in your attack that a counter shows itself.
_________________
"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Lock em out or Knock em out" |
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Tal
Orange Belt
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 167
Location: UK
Styles: shotokan karate, jujitsu, kendo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Jujitsu throws are not judo throws. A jujitsuka will not just try and throw someone first thing. Strikes and unbalancing moves come first. The jujitsuka will momentarily disable or unbalance you so he can make the throw. Once he's in position to throw, it will most likely be too late. A karateka will have to rely on defeating the jujitsuka before he gets into a throwing position.
Some of the basic throws you see look easy to counter; that's because they are basic. The more advanced throws are hard or sometimes impossible to counter once the jujitsuka has you and is ready to throw.
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shotokan karate nidan
jujitsu shodan
kendo shodan |
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed Tal. Judo throws are clean and crisp, and studying judo can truly refine some very useful takedown skills, but... judo is sport-oriented, and therefore does not include examination into defense against striking. In judo, if a throw is blocked, he simply switches up or reverts to ready position. However, in real encounters, being blocked is soon followed by a few elbows to the back of the head, or possibly a snapkick to the shin/knee. Maybe even a footstomp or ear wrench.
Combat jujutsu is the unrefined base for which Kano jujutsu (judo) was created. Also, you have to realize that judo is based on only one type of combat jujutsu. There are actually a variety of different jujutsu styles, just as there are a variety of karate styles. Although similar, each has their 'focus,' their strengths and their weaknesses.
Anyway, combat jujutsu implements strikes, kicks, and other means of hurting your opponent other than merely throwing and grappling. To presume the entirety of jujutsu is groundwork is to end up getting a beatdown. 
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"When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV Test
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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After reading more of this thread, i wanted to jump in a bit.
| Amp wrote: |
| In the UFC, you can't hit in the crotch or the eye. If you're taking someone down and they're in a lot of pain, a fingernail right in the middle of your eye slicing tissue will make most people let go fast and take them out for a long time. Anyone who's gotten tagged in the crotch knows how bad that hurts. Imagine thinking you've got the guy in a really good lock and getting your crotch chomped on hard. People will bite, scratch, tear, and claw when you grapple them. Above all, concrete hurts a lot. |
Amp is correct, in that competitions all have rules. Even the so-called 'no-holds barred' competitions. Tearing out of the groin and eye gouges are but two common exempted targets. There's also breaking or tearing off of fingers, digging your fingers under the clavicle and... pulling, ripping off an ear, hooking of the mouth or nose, pulling of hair, etc etc etc. There are a multitude of easy targets available for the desperate man (or woman). And, don't forget, there's household and outdoor items... such as dishes, chairs, keyboards, sand, throwing water or oil on the ground, etc. Things unexpected that can fundamentally change the outcome of a conflict.
| Sasori_Te wrote: |
| The most effective style is the one you can adapt to yourself and use effectively if needed. Other than that there is no most effective style. What may be effective for me may be out of reach for you or vice versa. |
Essentially, there are various ranges in fighting, with grappling being ground zero. Forward momentum brings you comfortably towards ground zero, therefore it is essential that you have a firm grasp of groundfighting or you are going to find yourself 'backing up' and losing focus (your opponent in front of you, and you travel area behind you... just not a good way to go when on the streets). But, understanding and having competence in all the other ranges is also essential. For, if you don't know a range, you are susceptible to injury when attempting to pass-through that range.
By range i mean that groundfighting is zero, half-arm (elbows/knees/headbutts) is range 1, full-arm (most punches) is range 2, full-leg (most kicks) is range 3, reach-leg (just outside of standard kicks) is range 4, and talk-zone (far enough away to mediate) is range 5.
Different systems focus on different ranges and if you must travel through their range of control, to get to your range of control, you are susceptible to injury and outright defeat.
It's important to be grounded in all ranges in order that you may enter your range of control, or at least exit their range of control, without significant risk.
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"When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV Test
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Sasori_Te
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Near Akron Ohio
Styles: Kempo and Kobudo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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When I say out of reach I'm not speaking literally. I'm saying that while I may be good at doing a particular style a particular way, another person may not be able to do that same particular style as effectively as I can.
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A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. |
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White Warlock
Black Belt
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 2662
Styles: See my Intro
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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lol, no i understood what you meant. I just decided to go off on a slight tangent and talk about ranges. Reexamining my post, i can easily see how it would have looked like i was out in left field.
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"When you are able to take the keys from my hand, you will be ready to drive." - Shaolin DMV Test
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on the post.
