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skullsplitter
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 165

Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: New Full Contact League Reply with quote

I ran across this on Sports Illustrated and Blackbelt Magazine. Karate Combat Full Contact League. Looks interesting. Maybe something to compete with MMA eventually.

https://blackbeltmag.com/arts/karate/karate-combat-organization-launches-full-contact-fighting-league/
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

25 years and people still don't get it.
I took a look at those rules, and while they could be cool for an alternative to karate point fighting, that's about it.

Viewing it as an alternative to MMA would require them to not eliminate grappling from the program.

And you can say "but you are allowed to throw with an immediate follow up" all you want, but when you have rules statements like this:

However, the match is reset if both combatants go to the mat, which is intended to keep the action focused on striking.

You are not going to convince me that this is somehow going to compete with MMA.

That said, for people doing Karate that want a more realistic competition arena than point-fighting kumite, this would be awesome.
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 387
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, it is old hat. Pro Fight Karate, a French promotion, tried a similar format starting in 2009/10 which lasted until 2012. To be fair, in comparison, Pro Fight did allow some limited clinching and grappling, thus a little different from what is being presented by Karate Combat. Also, this league does seem to have some promising factors:

1. A streaming service, and video archive, which will help people access it. Also, Bas Rutten on commentary is not a bad thing for an inaugural event.

2. A unique arena suited to the combat. It gives the viewing experience a unique look, and helps differentiate from kick-boxing and MMA. It also seems to contribute to the quality of the combat, judging from what I have seen thus far.

3. Over 100 fighters already signed from around the world, and including luminaries such as Rafeal Aghayev. It has a significant appeal to people who already follow Sport Karate, but also has the potential to draw in Kick-Boxing enthusiasts.

Now, what I will add is that is has some very stiff competition. There is already Glory (Kick-Boxing) which has deals with UFC Fightpass and ESPN, and for those who are not fans or Free-Fighting or Boxing it is comfortably filling a niche.

In terms of striking sports that allow throws, it must also actively compete with Shoot-Boxing, Muay Thai, and Sanshou. Now, one advantage it does have is that it is very difficult to access Shoot-Boxing outside of Japan, professional Sanshou outside of the Chinese mainland, and regular Muay thai events outside of Thailand. Also, the violence of Muay Thai can be off putting for some fight fans, and this Karate Combat League could offer them a less bloody alternative. Similarly, the clinch fighting of Shoot-Boxing and Sanshou can lead to turtling and some very boring competition. After all, Glory has made it's mark through rules which keep the fighting active.

The trend of what I like to call Budo Shin-Kakutogi continues to go strong as well. In Japan you have Ganryujima, which is still going strong this year. Again, difficult to get good access outside of Japan, but it is very easy to find fights on Youtube if one looks. In the U.K, there are the ongoing efforts of Lee Hasdell, and though Combudo seems to have run it's course, I suspect more events of a similar ilk will be on their way. Also, at an amateur level, it has to be asked if this is providing anything that Daido Juko Kudo and Kenka Karate do not already provide.

With the above said though, I see promise in this venture, and the timing is impeccable. With the Olympics only two years away, and Karate making it's debut as an Olympic sport in Tokyo; having a professional league established, and ready to absorb Olympic competitors, could be a very good thing. The main danger lies in the effort losing traction before that potential pay off in 2020. The main threat to that traction is a lack of support because of the stiff competition that exists in the fighting world.
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Last edited by Wado Heretic on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I trained in wado back in the 1980s, full contact was common. I was only a young teenager at the time, so I was only allowed 'semi contact', which was plenty enough to bust a lip or bloody a nose, but not really enough to do lasting damage or a KO.

Every class was roughly 50% physical training, comprising line drills, kata etc plus loads of strength and endurance activities, and 50% 'free fighting'. It was termed free fighting because it was really just fighting. Not like modern sparring. It was was dirty. Any technique was allowed. No pads were worn. You just had a scrap. We weren't allowed to strike the kidneys, groin, neck or temples and we weren't allowed to gouge eyes, but apart from that, anything goes.

The only difference between our rules then and what you typically see in MMA today was that if the fight went to the ground, it effectively paused and reset.

Even today, in a local wado club near me, they practice full contact. Lots of karate clubs do. Although lots more seem to have gone down the watered down point sparring route.

Personally, I'm not a fan of full contact. No point training to defend yourself if your training leaves you battered and injured and potentially brain damaged. But for those that want full contact karate, I don't think they'll have to look to hard for it. And this new thing that everyone's talking about isn't really new at all.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
When I trained in wado back in the 1980s, full contact was common. I was only a young teenager at the time, so I was only allowed 'semi contact', which was plenty enough to bust a lip or bloody a nose, but not really enough to do lasting damage or a KO.

Every class was roughly 50% physical training, comprising line drills, kata etc plus loads of strength and endurance activities, and 50% 'free fighting'. It was termed free fighting because it was really just fighting. Not like modern sparring. It was was dirty. Any technique was allowed. No pads were worn. You just had a scrap. We weren't allowed to strike the kidneys, groin, neck or temples and we weren't allowed to gouge eyes, but apart from that, anything goes.

The only difference between our rules then and what you typically see in MMA today was that if the fight went to the ground, it effectively paused and reset.

Even today, in a local wado club near me, they practice full contact. Lots of karate clubs do. Although lots more seem to have gone down the watered down point sparring route.

Personally, I'm not a fan of full contact. No point training to defend yourself if your training leaves you battered and injured and potentially brain damaged. But for those that want full contact karate, I don't think they'll have to look to hard for it. And this new thing that everyone's talking about isn't really new at all.


Full contact all the time is silly. But it should go in cycles. So for example, is you are training for a fight or a tournament, the contact level goes up. And every once in a while you raise the level just because.

Full contact, or at least some level of it, is the best thing you can do for self defense.
I have said this before, but I will reiterate it again:
No matter what your style is teaching, if you cannot and have not applied your technique against an intelligently resisting opponent in an adrenalized state, then you cannot really do it.
Aliveness is key.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2369
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
When I trained in wado back in the 1980s, full contact was common. I was only a young teenager at the time, so I was only allowed 'semi contact', which was plenty enough to bust a lip or bloody a nose, but not really enough to do lasting damage or a KO.

Every class was roughly 50% physical training, comprising line drills, kata etc plus loads of strength and endurance activities, and 50% 'free fighting'. It was termed free fighting because it was really just fighting. Not like modern sparring. It was was dirty. Any technique was allowed. No pads were worn. You just had a scrap. We weren't allowed to strike the kidneys, groin, neck or temples and we weren't allowed to gouge eyes, but apart from that, anything goes.

The only difference between our rules then and what you typically see in MMA today was that if the fight went to the ground, it effectively paused and reset.

Even today, in a local wado club near me, they practice full contact. Lots of karate clubs do. Although lots more seem to have gone down the watered down point sparring route.

Personally, I'm not a fan of full contact. No point training to defend yourself if your training leaves you battered and injured and potentially brain damaged. But for those that want full contact karate, I don't think they'll have to look to hard for it. And this new thing that everyone's talking about isn't really new at all.


Full contact all the time is silly. But it should go in cycles. So for example, is you are training for a fight or a tournament, the contact level goes up. And every once in a while you raise the level just because.

Full contact, or at least some level of it, is the best thing you can do for self defense.
I have said this before, but I will reiterate it again:
No matter what your style is teaching, if you cannot and have not applied your technique against an intelligently resisting opponent in an adrenalized state, then you cannot really do it.
Aliveness is key.


I fully agree here. There’s a time and place for everything. Every karateka should have at least some full contact experience. Not every day like some organizations/systems are notorious for, but some. People get too comfortable with the light and even moderate contact after a period of time. During sparring, they’re not trying to defend as hard simply because they’re not being hit hard.

Full/hard contact gives you that reality check. Sometimes you come to the harsh realization that you don’t hit as hard as you thought you do. You realize that these “death blows” aren’t exactly what you thought they were. You realize that the multi-step attacks get stopped dead in their tracks far more often than not. It’s a wake-up call. Then you go back to lighter contact, and you easily recognize the techniques that your partner pulled would’ve knock you out if he followed through. You realize that that kick that stopped short of your face would’ve knock your teeth down your throat if he didn’t control it. You learn you really do need to keep your hands up.

There’s too many lessons to be missed by not going hard every now and then. The more you’ve done it, the less often you need to. It’s definitely not for everyone, but IMO it is for everyone who’s serious about training. Without it, everything’s hypothetical. If the time comes where you actually have to use your training, nothing’s going to be hypothetical. Nothing’s going to be pulled.
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