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dibbs0529
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 31 May 2017
Posts: 1

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Shotokan and Weapons? Reply with quote

I know Shotokan is literally all about "empty-hands" but I was wondering if anyone had ever trained in a Shotokan weapons karate like a kobudo or something similar.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Shotokan and Weapons? Reply with quote

dibbs0529 wrote:
I know Shotokan is literally all about "empty-hands" but I was wondering if anyone had ever trained in a Shotokan weapons karate like a kobudo or something similar.


Not all styles of Karate incorporate Kobudo. I have known many Shotokan students/instructors and I have never heard of them training in Kobudo but that doesn't mean that the art as a whole doesn't or that certain instructors do not teach it.

Many of the Okinawan arts train in Kobudo but that does not mean that all instructors/CI's of that art teach Kobudo. I think it really depends on the instructor.

Having said that, none of the people that I know that train specifically in Shotokan train in Kobudo unless it's outside of their schools.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Sensei (shotokan with jujitsu, and judo) teaches hanbo, bo, nunchucks and Samurai Sword.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
My Sensei (shotokan with jujitsu, and judo) teaches hanbo, bo, nunchucks and Samurai Sword.


Do you know where he learned these weapons? Hanbo and Katana I can see since this is a Japanese art. Bo is the first weapon taught in Kobudo and the Nunchaku is probably the most popular do to Bruce Lee.

Did he learn these weapons from one of his teachers or outside of Shotokan?
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 387
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is evidence that Funakoshi Gichin did instruct in Kobujutsu, and what he did teach can be found, in part, in Shotokai. For example; I know the Shotokai of Harada incorporates some kobujutsu instruction.

Oddly; this seems a rarity for modern shotokan, though I suspect this is due to the marketing efforts of the JKA in the post-war years. Like Kendo, and other martial disciplines based on weapons, for several years any form of kobujutsu was illegal in Japan. It is easier to practice unarmed combat behind closed doors, than it is weapons; which require weapons and thus evidence of not following the law to be part of your practice. Also, competition, and the globalisation of karate became the main focus of the JKA approach; and I doubt kobujutsu fit the image.

Even today; kobujutsu seems to struggle in comparison to karate. My weapon classes are always significantly smaller than my karate classes. I suspect people do not enjoy, or do not see as much utility, in studying weapons. Plus, there are few good competition formats for combative kobujutsu that it is a very isolated practice.

Keep what is useful and relevant; the intellectual hurdles to justify becoming involved in the preservation of kobujutsu knowledge are harder to come by then those of karate. You can compete in karate, and so long as you are at a pretty good school; you will learn something about self-defence, and get in shape.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we suggesting that the commonality of kobudo, whether it be of a norm or of a specialty, is starting to, if it hasn't already, die away for whatever the reason(s) might be or might not be??!!??

I shudder at the implication of such a thing.




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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
My Sensei (shotokan with jujitsu, and judo) teaches hanbo, bo, nunchucks and Samurai Sword.


Do you know where he learned these weapons? Hanbo and Katana I can see since this is a Japanese art. Bo is the first weapon taught in Kobudo and the Nunchaku is probably the most popular do to Bruce Lee.

Did he learn these weapons from one of his teachers or outside of Shotokan?


I am not sure where he learned them. I admit that I am not very knowledgeable about the full curricula and histories of each art. I tend to focus my training and study on the immediate needs of my current requirements. I do know he has been studying martial arts since he was a kid in Dominica (30+ years). I know he as done a fair amount of cross training, but in what exactly, I am not sure.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Are we suggesting that the commonality of kobudo, whether it be of a norm or of a specialty, is starting to, if it hasn't already, die away for whatever the reason(s) might be or might not be??!!??

I shudder at the implication of such a thing.


As in so many other posts it comes down to Modern vs. Old School (pre-japanization which is why I did not say traditional as they use this word a lot to describe Karate).

Most modern Karateka do not understand that Toudi and Buki'gwa were practiced hand in hand with each other and that each complemented the other. Today Tegumi, Tuidi (Tuite, Torite) and Chibudi (Kyusho) are taught as a separate class. You even have a few that have made arts and curriculum out of one or two of these as if they are a stand alone art. Dillman and his Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu comes to mind. Why would you expect that Buki'gwa (Kobudo) would be any different?

Modern vs. Old School. Whatever did not fit into the ideal curriculum was caste aside and discarded.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Are we suggesting that the commonality of kobudo, whether it be of a norm or of a specialty, is starting to, if it hasn't already, die away for whatever the reason(s) might be or might not be??!!??

I shudder at the implication of such a thing.


As in so many other posts it comes down to Modern vs. Old School (pre-japanization which is why I did not say traditional as they use this word a lot to describe Karate).

Most modern Karateka do not understand that Toudi and Buki'gwa were practiced hand in hand with each other and that each complemented the other. Today Tegumi, Tuidi (Tuite, Torite) and Chibudi (Kyusho) are taught as a separate class. You even have a few that have made arts and curriculum out of one or two of these as if they are a stand alone art. Dillman and his Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu comes to mind. Why would you expect that Buki'gwa (Kobudo) would be any different?

Modern vs. Old School. Whatever did not fit into the ideal curriculum was caste aside and discarded.

To the bold type above...

Well, being birthed in the MA in the old school, I can only dream and hope!!




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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear that!
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