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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169
Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: What's the benefit of training traditional karate? |
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I asked my instructor this one tonight: What's the benefit of training traditional karate instead of just training the self-defense application directly? In class we tend to drill techniques/kata and the like and then learn how to apply them in a self-defense scenario. Why not just skip the whole technique drilling and start directly with practical application?
Assuming that my primary goal here is self-defense. But if you want to touch on the other things that traditional karate can give you apart from self-defense, I'm open to that too. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: What's the benefit of training traditional karate? |
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| shortyafter wrote: |
I asked my instructor this one tonight: What's the benefit of training traditional karate instead of just training the self-defense application directly? In class we tend to drill techniques/kata and the like and then learn how to apply them in a self-defense scenario. Why not just skip the whole technique drilling and start directly with practical application?
Assuming that my primary goal here is self-defense. But if you want to touch on the other things that traditional karate can give you apart from self-defense, I'm open to that too. |
Many reasons but I'll touch on just one that will speak to the spirit of your post.
How many times do you practice the same self defense technique? If you're strictly taking a self defense based art you might practice it up until you test or until you start learning new techniques.
How many times do you practice Kata? Answer; you never stop.
Why is this important? Well if you think in terms of what Kata is and what it contains (some might call the applications self defense) you will realize that you practice these techniques over and over. You may not realize it but your conditioning your body over time. Essentially ingraining muscle memory. This leads to an instant response.
Why not just practice the self defense techniques? You are.
Side Bar: I assume when you say traditional, that at least one of the focuses of training are the applications of the Kata. If not ignore the aforementioned post and find yourself a good self defense based art.
If you do focus on the Kata's applications you literally practice self defense every time you perform the Kata.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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One's not ever forced to train traditionally and/or non-traditionally within any MA style; it's a personal choice. In that, there's a plethora of MA schools that steer away from the traditional methodology/ideology, and stress more on what they might believe to be the meat-and-potatoes of what they teach.
On the other hand, traditional schools are there as well. Albeit, there's a smorgasbord of traditionally geared MA schools, if that's what's ones desire.
However, there's 2 old adages that says...
"When in Rome, do as the Roman's do."
And/or...
"If you want tomatoes, you have to go to the tomato vendor."
If someone wants to learn Shindokan from me, that prospective student will be succumbed to traditional training; I believe in the value of it wholeheartedly.
Whether it be traditional or non-traditional, the meat-and-potatoes of it all well be greatly dependent upon the quality teaching of the CI.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I suppose one could consider self defense to be the "martial" part of the martial art.
All the extra stuff might be considered the art. If you think about it, art is what has carried much of our culture and traditions down (be it through painting, sculpture, music, poetry, cooking, etc.) The tradition gives us structure. It may not be perfect, but it is the way it has been done, and it has worked fairly well thus far.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
I suppose one could consider self defense to be the "martial" part of the martial art.
All the extra stuff might be considered the art. If you think about it, art is what has carried much of our culture and traditions down (be it through painting, sculpture, music, poetry, cooking, etc.) The tradition gives us structure. It may not be perfect, but it is the way it has been done, and it has worked fairly well thus far. |
I’ve heard a lot of people say the “art” part of MA is what you’re saying.
I had a decent length post about it, but I think I’m going to start a new thread instead. |
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Chunmonchek
Orange Belt
Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 177
Styles: Goju
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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My extremely biased opinion is that training solely self defense applications will give you only/just that..a limited response...and this is fine and good if that's all one wants.
Training the "Art" should provide more than just a physical fighting response to a discreet attack.
Training the Art provides (or should provide) the means to cultivate the Mind, Body and Spirit... It should improve ones overall physical, mental and emotional health... and It should provide one with the means to grow old gracefully.
If you train correctly long enough, you transcend "applications" as all movements and responses should be pure martial movement and intent.
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Chris |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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What's the benefit of NOT training traditional karate? The benefit of whatever it might be is what the practitioner puts into it. I can see advantages of either methodology/ideology, and I'm a staunch proponent of traditional training.
I'm not completely oblivious to my surroundings because there are more than one way to skin a cat or milk the cow or flip a coin or to charm the skin off a snake or...well...you get my euphemism.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574
Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: What's the benefit of training traditional karate? |
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| shortyafter wrote: |
I asked my instructor this one tonight: What's the benefit of training traditional karate instead of just training the self-defense application directly? In class we tend to drill techniques/kata and the like and then learn how to apply them in a self-defense scenario. Why not just skip the whole technique drilling and start directly with practical application?
Assuming that my primary goal here is self-defense. But if you want to touch on the other things that traditional karate can give you apart from self-defense, I'm open to that too. |
I think the answer you are looking for is one word - Budō (武道).
'Bu' in this respect means martial or of military.
'dō' means 'way' (in very simplistic terms).
The term 'dō' is a Japanese translation (or iteration) of the Chinese 'Tao'
Don Dreager writes about it as follows:
'Tao, according to both the Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu, is nameless and unnameable, a unitary "that" from which all else springs. Such is the orthodox Taoist view. The Japanese, however, less inclined than the Chinese to abstract speculations about an "otherwordly" life, and favoring a pragmatic outlook, took the Tao - Do in Japanese - to be a more realistic concept, one that was applicable to man in his social relationships. They preferred the Confucian interpretation of the Tao as a nameable, named and multiple concept that nevertheless transcends both nature and man.
The basis for what the Japanese call do or michi "way", lies in these ancient concepts of the Tao carried to Japan from China. Whatever the original meanings for the Chinese, they were modified both by native Japanese beliefs like Shinto and by the social and political requirements of the ruling elite... the do is not a religion in itself... The essentially nonreligious outlook of the Japanese people did not add to the do in this sphere; their high degree of absorption in human relationships prevented this.
The Tao as do was therefore understood by the Japanese to be a "way" or "road" to follow in life. That way is endless and profound. It is long, steep and filled with numerous technical difficulties. It is to be travelled as a means of self-cultivation, and it leads ultimately to self-perfection.'
so what seems like a simple question has a very deep answer.
K.
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Usque ad mortem bibendum! |
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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let's face it.
You can practice Pinan Nidan until your feet bleed, and that won't make you a better fighter, or even a fighter.
I know many people talk about bunkai, but how is practicing a strike to the air while you imagine the applications in your head going to prepare you to really pull off that application? It's like performing swimming motions in the air while imagining how that would work in water and expecting that to teach you how to swim.
The benefit of kata is not a direct self defense application, the benefit, like kusotare mentioned is "Do", the way!
It is the process of learning the kata what benefits you. You're engaging your mind in order to learn the sequence of movements. You're teaching your body to move in ways it is not used to, until the moves in a specific kata become second nature and you don't even have to think about them. In time, with enough practice, you gain a full understanding of the body mechanics in said kata, which furthers your understanding of the art itself. Continued practice improves stamina, speed and control of your movements. Spending several years learning a series of katas will result in mental, stamina and body mechanics improvements.
It's not knowing the kata what will benefit you, but the process you had to undergo to learn and master it. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RW wrote: |
let's face it.
You can practice Pinan Nidan until your feet bleed, and that won't make you a better fighter, or even a fighter.
I know many people talk about bunkai, but how is practicing a strike to the air while you imagine the applications in your head going to prepare you to really pull off that application? It's like performing swimming motions in the air while imagining how that would work in water and expecting that to teach you how to swim.
The benefit of kata is not a direct self defense application, the benefit, like kusotare mentioned is "Do", the way!
It is the process of learning the kata what benefits you. You're engaging your mind in order to learn the sequence of movements. You're teaching your body to move in ways it is not used to, until the moves in a specific kata become second nature and you don't even have to think about them. In time, with enough practice, you gain a full understanding of the body mechanics in said kata, which furthers your understanding of the art itself. Continued practice improves stamina, speed and control of your movements. Spending several years learning a series of katas will result in mental, stamina and body mechanics improvements.
It's not knowing the kata what will benefit you, but the process you had to undergo to learn and master it. |
To the bold above... I agree with you if this is how you train. However the applications "Bunkai" are not meant to be practiced in the air but against an opponent. One that progressively become more non compliant to the point of full resistance.
As far as the Kata teaching you how to fight goes... well it depends on how you train and how you use the Kata.
I will point out that the founders and those before them DID learn from the Kata, just not how it is practiced today. In terms of modern practice, you're absolutely right it will not teach you to fight.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
