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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: What to do with a bogus rank |
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I trained & received my 1st Dan (WTF) in 1985. I had to switch schools. I trained & received what I believed to be a 2nd Dan (ITF) in 1989. I found out years later that my instructor had no ties with the ITF & had the certificate prinited up himself. (You can imagine my embarassment when a Grand Master showed me what a REAL ITF certificate looks like!)
I've trained in kickboxing & boxing since (no belts & different politics) so its not been an issue. But, if I wanted to test again, would I need to re-test for my 2nd in your system of TKD? Or could I just train & test for my 3rd?
There have to folks out there with similar stories. I'd love to hear them, too.
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Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
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orion82698
Brown Belt
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 707
Location: Gym
Styles: Barking Spider
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:58 am Post subject: |
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WOW.... that's a bad situation. Unfortuneatly, it's too late to take legal action (I think). I'm sure someone on here would be able to help you. My question to you is, do you think the training you went through was good enough of a black belt? Do you remember, and could you perform your forms for a grand master to test into 2nd dan again? (Not that I'm doubting you, or your training) Just that if this guy wasn't even affiliated w/ITF, and probably wasn't even a black belt himself, do you really trust the form and knowledge of his teachings?
Good luck with this, and keep us up to date! 
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I don't have to be the best, just better than you!
Working towards 11% BF and a Six pack |
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| orion82698 wrote: |
WOW.... that's a bad situation. Unfortuneatly, it's too late to take legal action (I think). I'm sure someone on here would be able to help you. My question to you is, do you think the training you went through was good enough of a black belt? Do you remember, and could you perform your forms for a grand master to test into 2nd dan again? (Not that I'm doubting you, or your training) Just that if this guy wasn't even affiliated w/ITF, and probably wasn't even a black belt himself, do you really trust the form and knowledge of his teachings?
Good luck with this, and keep us up to date! |
It was a strange set of circumstances w/ the second school where I tested for 2nd Dan. The instructor claimed 6th Dan ITF, but the only rank we knew for sure was a 4th Dan he received from an instructor in town. So, he was a black belt. His wife told us (after their divorce) that she tested in front of some folks for her 4th Dan that she believed to be legit. But her certificate looks just like ours. I trust the form & knowledge of his teaching cuz it mirrors the guy in our town who promoted him to 4th Dan who is legit. To answer the training question, yes, I could have easily tested for 2nd in front of a GM then. (Its a good question. I take no offense). I could test for 3rd Dan w/ in 6 months recalling forms, & specific techniques (I've been doing full contact kickboxing & western boxing for a number of years now. I'm out of practice at "traditional TKD.")
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Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
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orion82698
Brown Belt
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 707
Location: Gym
Styles: Barking Spider
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'm no instructor, but I would say if you know the forms, and your kicks and stances are in place with balance, I don't see why they wouldn't promote you. You sound like you have a firm grasp on TKD, and your training. It does suck how they screwed you. It's very scary in the world of MA. Knowing which place is truely a good MA school. My Uncle has tought me something about MA. He tells me to try and trace the liniage of the instructor, back to the founder of that art. So many people can put a belt around their waist and say "I'm a master of this, or a founder of that" I really wish it was harder for places to do this. You put so much trust and time into something like this, only to find that you have been cheated. I feel your pain. I got into a school where I thought it was all legit, only to find that after being there for a short period of time, it wasn't what I expected, nor worth the money I'm paying. Let me know how this goes, and good luck with testing for 3rd Dan in 6 months!
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I don't have to be the best, just better than you!
Working towards 11% BF and a Six pack |
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liquidkudzu
Yellow Belt
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: What to do with a bogus rank |
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| IcemanSK wrote: |
I trained & received my 1st Dan (WTF) in 1985. I had to switch schools. I trained & received what I believed to be a 2nd Dan (ITF) in 1989. I found out years later that my instructor had no ties with the ITF & had the certificate prinited up himself. (You can imagine my embarassment when a Grand Master showed me what a REAL ITF certificate looks like!)
I've trained in kickboxing & boxing since (no belts & different politics) so its not been an issue. But, if I wanted to test again, would I need to re-test for my 2nd in your system of TKD? Or could I just train & test for my 3rd?
There have to folks out there with similar stories. I'd love to hear them, too. |
Ouch. That story made me really mad, on your behalf. If you stepped into my school, I would consider you a 2nd dan black belt, but that is my opinion.
I guess it really comes down to a matter of affiliation. Since you know the affiliation was bogus, then that means you are not a 2nd dan in ITF TKD, but are a 2nd dan in TKD (with no affiliation). The situation was no fault of your own.
If you are wanting to go to 3rd degree in ITF TKD, just find a teacher that will allow you to test for 3rd dan, but let him know that your last teacher was shady and you were ignorant of his fake affiliation status.
Also, you could join an association other than ITF that would cross rank you in their association as a 2nd dan. The problem with that is finding an association that you don't feel is a diploma mill.
Go to google.com and type in "martial arts association" and you will see what I mean.
By the way, you can go to www.martialartssupermarket.com and buy ITF certificates for about $3.00
I am surprised that I don't see your story more often.
lk |
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| liquidkudzu wrote: |
| IcemanSK wrote: |
I trained & received my 1st Dan (WTF) in 1985. I had to switch schools. I trained & received what I believed to be a 2nd Dan (ITF) in 1989. I found out years later that my instructor had no ties with the ITF & had the certificate prinited up himself. (You can imagine my embarassment when a Grand Master showed me what a REAL ITF certificate looks like!)
I've trained in kickboxing & boxing since (no belts & different politics) so its not been an issue. But, if I wanted to test again, would I need to re-test for my 2nd in your system of TKD? Or could I just train & test for my 3rd?
There have to folks out there with similar stories. I'd love to hear them, too. |
Ouch. That story made me really mad, on your behalf. If you stepped into my school, I would consider you a 2nd dan black belt, but that is my opinion.
I guess it really comes down to a matter of affiliation. Since you know the affiliation was bogus, then that means you are not a 2nd dan in ITF TKD, but are a 2nd dan in TKD (with no affiliation). The situation was no fault of your own.
If you are wanting to go to 3rd degree in ITF TKD, just find a teacher that will allow you to test for 3rd dan, but let him know that your last teacher was shady and you were ignorant of his fake affiliation status.
Also, you could join an association other than ITF that would cross rank you in their association as a 2nd dan. The problem with that is finding an association that you don't feel is a diploma mill.
Go to google.com and type in "martial arts association" and you will see what I mean.
By the way, you can go to www.martialartssupermarket.com and buy ITF certificates for about $3.00
I am surprised that I don't see your story more often.
lk |
Wow, I had no clue it was easy to buy an actual certificate! I think I'm gonna be sick. I just saw your link. I could buy a "legit" WTF certificate. I didn't see an ITF, tho.
UGH!
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Eric_
Yellow Belt
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 99
Styles: Kenpo, Kobudo
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| If his 2nd Dan material actually met the ITF requirements, and it was just the affiliation that was fake, then, personally, I would retest for the rank, just for the benefit of pride. Of course, I imagine that they would require the retest, if for no other reason than to make sure that what you were taught was actually up to their standards. As for orion82698's guess that it's too late to take legal action, it's probably not. If he had you sign a contract that specifically claimed him to be associated with the ITF, then he could be sued for breech of contract (you'd probably get your tuition back), or, possibly, charged with fraud (depending on state and exact circumstances). If nothing else, he violated trademark and copyright laws (I'm assuming the ITF has their name trademarked and logo copyright protected). I'm not condoning our great American pass time of suing everyone in sight, but this instructor is a crook, has committed at least one crime in his deception, and should not go unpunished (at least, unexposed), for the sake of his potential future students. |
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: Bogus rank |
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| Eric_ wrote: |
| If his 2nd Dan material actually met the ITF requirements, and it was just the affiliation that was fake, then, personally, I would retest for the rank, just for the benefit of pride. Of course, I imagine that they would require the retest, if for no other reason than to make sure that what you were taught was actually up to their standards. As for orion82698's guess that it's too late to take legal action, it's probably not. If he had you sign a contract that specifically claimed him to be associated with the ITF, then he could be sued for breech of contract (you'd probably get your tuition back), or, possibly, charged with fraud (depending on state and exact circumstances). If nothing else, he violated trademark and copyright laws (I'm assuming the ITF has their name trademarked and logo copyright protected). I'm not condoning our great American pass time of suing everyone in sight, but this instructor is a crook, has committed at least one crime in his deception, and should not go unpunished (at least, unexposed), for the sake of his potential future students. |
Eric:
My best friend (who tested with me) & have discussed this over the years. As black belts of that school, we didn't pay for tuition because we taught classes. We were charged $100 for our test. Many of our students began training at a legit ITF school quite far away after our school disbanded. The instuctor there was well aware of the situation & was able to help them obtain ITF rank.
Suing wasn't really something we considered seriously. And after 16 years, I doubt its possible anymore. His wife was really the driving force behind them having a school. When they divorced, his career was pretty much over. (He was not exactly Mr. Personality & she could teach a dead dog to roll over).
I don't know if the ITF guy the others went to helped them pursue a suit or not. He was a high ranking guy in the ITF, aware of the situation, & an attorney. If anybody would have been serious, he'd have helped them.
My buddy who tested with me is now training in a Chung Moo Kwon TKD school in another part of the country with his kids. They accepted him as a black belt without reservation after they heard his story. When it comes to it, he & I will retest for our 2nd Dans, somewhere.
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Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
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Eric_
Yellow Belt
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 99
Styles: Kenpo, Kobudo
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bogus rank |
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| IcemanSK wrote: |
| Eric_ wrote: |
| If his 2nd Dan material actually met the ITF requirements, and it was just the affiliation that was fake, then, personally, I would retest for the rank, just for the benefit of pride. Of course, I imagine that they would require the retest, if for no other reason than to make sure that what you were taught was actually up to their standards. As for orion82698's guess that it's too late to take legal action, it's probably not. If he had you sign a contract that specifically claimed him to be associated with the ITF, then he could be sued for breech of contract (you'd probably get your tuition back), or, possibly, charged with fraud (depending on state and exact circumstances). If nothing else, he violated trademark and copyright laws (I'm assuming the ITF has their name trademarked and logo copyright protected). I'm not condoning our great American pass time of suing everyone in sight, but this instructor is a crook, has committed at least one crime in his deception, and should not go unpunished (at least, unexposed), for the sake of his potential future students. |
Eric:
My best friend (who tested with me) & have discussed this over the years. As black belts of that school, we didn't pay for tuition because we taught classes. We were charged $100 for our test. Many of our students began training at a legit ITF school quite far away after our school disbanded. The instuctor there was well aware of the situation & was able to help them obtain ITF rank.
Suing wasn't really something we considered seriously. And after 16 years, I doubt its possible anymore. His wife was really the driving force behind them having a school. When they divorced, his career was pretty much over. (He was not exactly Mr. Personality & she could teach a dead dog to roll over).
I don't know if the ITF guy the others went to helped them pursue a suit or not. He was a high ranking guy in the ITF, aware of the situation, & an attorney. If anybody would have been serious, he'd have helped them.
My buddy who tested with me is now training in a Chung Moo Kwon TKD school in another part of the country with his kids. They accepted him as a black belt without reservation after they heard his story. When it comes to it, he & I will retest for our 2nd Dans, somewhere. |
Oh, I had assumed that it was more recent than that. Good luck with your test (I'm guessing you won't need it  ). |
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on the post.
