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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Check out this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931229279/qid=1055950800/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-9643783-5871906
It shows numerous stand-up self-defence methods from BJJ. It also has chapters fully explaining how BJJ handles self-defence situations and how it's tournament tactics differ from them. If you think the BJJ self-defence methods shown in the book are somehow limited, then by all means, complement from another art, or drop BJJ from your curriculum altogether. Many people have this weird idea that BJJ is nothing but rolling on the ground, but that is just the sport. Some classes focus on sport, others self-defence. The difference is only in the rules.
PS. One of the reviews at Amazon.com for the book said this:
| Amazon.com customer wrote: |
| Caveat to those looking to learn new grappling techniques: there are very few ground fighting techniques in this book other than escapes and counters to common headlocks and the like. |
Though another reviewer said this book was bad because it only showed self-defence methods and not BJJ at all. He had obviously only trained with sport rules. Some BJJ schools do just that. |
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granmasterchen
Black Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 1027
Location: japan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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my advice, one style is not enough my friend, you must study many and add and adapt so that you are well rounded and versatile.
_________________
That which does not destroy me will only make me stronger |
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JohnnyS
Green Belt
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 444
Location: Australia
Styles: BJJ, Shootfighting, TKD, Goju
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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While you are in the guard, what's to stop someone from hitting you in the back of the head with a iron bar while you are busy contending with the guy on the ground?
Nothing, but what’s to stop him hitting you on the back of a head whilst you’re standing?
Why would you want to take an opponent to the ground when, while busy with him, you are completely susceptible to outside attack: you are on the ground.
How about if the guy is bigger than you and you know that one hit from him would knock you out? How about if he’s bigger and you know that his strength and power is reduced once you put him on your back?
There are many times when using standing grappling is beneficial such as:
1) He’s on drugs or alcohol so that no matter how hard you hit him it won’t stop him, yet a choke will.
2) He’s a friend or family member going crazy and needs to be restrained, not given a broken nose or jaw to stop him.
3) You need to remove someone from the premises.
4) He’s grabbed you already
One thing to remember is that on the ground a fight isn’t going to last 30 minutes like a UFC match. We have beginners (and students and instructors of other styles) come into our BJJ class and they are tapping on the ground in seconds. Two or three seconds on the ground isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Also, from fight experiences I’ve seen and heard about, if two people end up grappling on the ground, the mates of one guy won’t step in too quickly because they don’t know what’s happening or think their guy is winning, or they are in shock and just watching. To break an arm quickly and get up straight away hasn’t been a problem for these guys.
_________________
BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)
Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black Belt
TKD - Black Belt |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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JohnnyS had some excellent points there.
1. BJJ self defence teaching is usually done standing up, not rolling on the ground.
2. Ground grappling has it advantages on the streets in some situations.
3. When you start grappling on the streets, you are not as gentle as in the ring. For example, nearly all ring rules have a rule that "unsportsmanship" will be punished/disqualified. That means that you are not intentionally allowed to injure the opponent. In the ring you go for submission. You do an arm bar to make him tap out, not to break his arm and continue beating him to pulp (or running away). A normal BJJ self defence technique includes
a) getting close
b) securing a lock/hold (stand-up version preferred if possible)
c) using the lock/hold to damage him (not make him tap out, but to go all the way and do it fast) |
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Martial_Artist
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 935
Location: Western USA.
Styles: The Pure Art
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:50 am Post subject: |
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JohnnyS,
About being hit from behind. Just for example get on the ground and have someone come up and try to hit you from behind. Your mobility isn't that much or quick. Now try the same exercise standing. For this particular circumstance it wouldn't be wise to get your hands tied up with your opponent.
However, you missed the point of my post.
If the guy is bigger than you and can knock you out with one punch how do you know he isn't skilled, or even another martial artist? Taking someone much larger than you physically to the ground because you assume he's not as skilled as you isn't tactically sound. But, regardless of his size, it would be in your advantage to have more than rudimentary striking skills against someone much larger and seemingly stronger than you.
Yes, there are many times when standing grappling is useful. I never said anything otherwise. I said by itself BJJ is lacking, but coupled with other skills becomes more effective.
My comments were based solely on BJJ stand alone. While some standing grappling techniques are used, basic striking, and rudimentary ranges, it is still primarily a ground art. And as such its standing skills pale when compared against the standing skills of a striking focused art. Conversely, a striking art that only dabbles in grappling will have inferior grappling ability when pitted against a grappling-centered art. But, this is another discussion altogether and if you want to further discuss it should be opened in a new thread.
Anyways,
The reasons you give for standing grappling are well-thought out, and cover a wider range of circumstances.
But, a single art is still limitating and doesn't cover all circumstances. Therefore, BJJ coupled with other arts makes for a more well-rounded fighter. BJJ alone, while effective for some circumstances, lacks in others. And that is the core of my meaning.
One thing to remember is that on the street don't trust your life to another. Don't expect that just because he's got some buddies that they won't interefere. Unless its an 'honor' fight or some other 'civilized' encounter you will be jumped by others. Schoolyard fights, some bar fights, kid fights usually result in others just standing by. Gang fights, thug fights, or fights for your life result in the other guys jumping in and hitting from behind while you're fighting their buddy. It's simple thugs fight to win. They don't care how, except that it done with the least amount of risk. IF that means shooting you, they'll do it. Using a knife, they'll do it. Or having their buddies jump you from behind, they'll do it. Every fight I got into in the Philippines more than one thug jumped at me. Strength in numbers and on the street that equals survival and power.
But I hope you see that I'm not writing off BJJ completely, just making point of the fact that alone it is not that effective of a self-defense art for the street. BUT, when other 'arts' are added then it becomes part of a more complete self-defense arsenal.
MA.
_________________
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." Einstein |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Martial_Artist wrote: |
| While some standing grappling techniques are used, basic striking, and rudimentary ranges, it is still primarily a ground art. |
And that is where you got it a bit wrong. It is "primarily a ground art" with the sport rules. This same issue often rises with Sambo. People don't realize that there are three versions of Sambo: sport, self-defence, military. In a same way there are two versions of BJJ: sport, self-defence. The difference is in the rules. If you go to a BJJ school (or Sambo school) that only teaches by the sport rules, you can understandably get the idea you obviously have of the art. I should know. In my country, BJJ is very new thing. Most training groups are lead by blue belts, as nobody here has a higher rank yet. We are lucky if we see a back belt from abroad twice a year. In the early steps of spreading BJJ it is usually done with pure sport rules. Thus, in my country, the only BJJ that is taught in class is the sport version. Sambo has been here for a bit longer (because the best source is just a couple hundred miles away), it started here with the sport version spreading first. Then when the quality of students rose, self-defence Sambo arrived here too. My guess is, you have yet to see self-defence BJJ. It is just my guess, based on your post, but my guess is that you have only seen the sport BJJ. I have been introduced to self-defence BJJ even I don't actually train in BJJ at all. |
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SBN Doug
KF VIP
Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 3767
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Kuk Sool Won
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Kirves wrote: |
| ...Many people have this weird idea that BJJ is nothing but rolling on the ground, but that is just the sport. Some classes focus on sport, others self-defence. The difference is only in the rules. |
Now you know what the TKDists feel like, trying to explain the difference between their "sport" and "self defense" training. 
_________________
Kuk Sool Won - 4th dan
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:10 am Post subject: |
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The problem with TKD people isn't that their self defence doesn't work. The problem, as I see it, is that 99% of the schools focus on the sport aspect. If you get 5 minutes per session of self defence instruction, it won't help you when you need it. And it is hard to find a TKD school that doesn't focus on sport.
PS. I understood your point  |
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Martial_Artist
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 935
Location: Western USA.
Styles: The Pure Art
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Kirves,
I think that you are wrong in your assumption here. BJJ is considered a grappling art, not because of its stellar striking techinques. Also, according to the web-sites of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(www.armlock.com), Jiu-Jistu.net, Ralph Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and Fabio Santos Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, BJJ is promoted as a grappling art, an art that takes the fight to the ground as its primary focus.
The Machado brothers have been quoted as saying, "I am a shark, the ground is my ocean...and most people can't even swim."
Now, each of these sites in some or another mention striking techniques, but their focus, their living core is grappling. Were it not so, then let's just call BJJ a striking art, because it's not a grappling art???
Self-defense BJJ is promoted as a grappling art that incorporates striking techniuqes.
The Gracie's website clearly states,
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| "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a cutting edge fighting art developed from traditional Jiu-Jitsu by the Gracie family of Brazil. Even though Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu contains standup techniques for winning a fight, it is famous for its devastating ground fighting techniques. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically developed to allow a smaller person defeat a larger person by sophisticated application of leverage and technique. Gaining superior position on your opponent and applying a myriad of chokes, holds, locks and joint manipulations becomes the foundation for this fun martial art." |
So, no, my perception of BJJ is not based on what I see in the ring, but what the teachers themselves, the very founders have to say about BJJ, about the combat orientated BJJ.
That being said, BJJ is effective, but not by itself. It cannot be. It is a single method of thought, a single approach to a myriad of problems and circumstances that vary and are random. It has a specific function, an ability to control a certain level of circumstance, but it is not, by design, capable of handling every situation. Therefore, what I said about BJJ is qualified by what the very instructors and founders of BJJ have said. It is a grappling art. Though it may cover parts of other ranges it is not as specific or as deep in those ranges as arts dedicated to those ranges.
Please, don't assume that I haven't done my homework on a subject or that I merely watch UFC to learn about something. I speak from those I have met, what has been written by those respected as authorities, and what I have experienced.
I think you have the misconception that somehow I have something against BJJ. If the question was reversed to another art, my answer would remain the same. Not alone, but coupled with something else. For the striking arts I recommend coupling a grappling art. No matter what grappling the striking art teaches it will not be as comprehensive as what you will learn in a grappling class. The same goes for a grappling art. What striking you learn there will not be as comprehensive as what striking you will learn in an art dedicated to striking.
Thank you for your input and comments. You always have good information to share.
MA.
_________________
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." Einstein |
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Kirves
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Martial_Artist wrote: |
Kirves,
I think that you are wrong in your assumption here. BJJ is considered a grappling art, not because of its stellar striking techinques. |
Ah, yes. It is a grappling art. But it also includes stand-up grappling. I do agree that their kicking or punching curriculum is not that great. But one cannot forget their stand-up grappling skills.
| Quote: |
| That being said, BJJ is effective, but not by itself. It cannot be. It is a single method of thought, a single approach to a myriad of problems and circumstances that vary and are random. |
Yes. But that can be said about any single art.
PS. Thanks for the nice words, I also rank your views up high on this board. |
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on the post.
