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hammer
Green Belt
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 370
Styles: Kyokushin, TKD
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 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| hammer wrote: |
| Agree that knockouts (or any real physical harm) during demos are definitely a no-no, but what about full contact kumite in class? Have seen a few instances during testing where the smelling salts were needed (fortunately not on me)...but I guess I just see that as part of learning a full contact style... |
Do not ever use smelling salts to wake up an unconscious person! Why not? When someone is woken up this way, their head moves very sharply when they come to. The medical field learned the hard way that unconscious people with a broken neck were significantly worsening their condition being woken up this way. When someone is unconscious due to trauma, you have to assume their neck is broken until it's ruled out by X-Ray or the like. When someone is KO'ed, they often hit their head on the ground too. This can and does cause neck fractures.
While I'm on a roll, never remove a helmet, head gear, etc. from an unconscious person either. You can and will move their neck while taking it off. Only remove it if you have to perform mouth to mouth and there's absolutely no other way, as in they have some sort of face shield that can't be cut off and they're not breathing.
Sorry for the lecture; it's the former sports medicine guy in me. |
Good to know...I wasn't involved in helping out but fortunately they both came to pretty quickly and there were no signs of neck injury. Neither one left to go to the hospital right away but I learned later that one did suffer a concussion. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Spiritual knockouts!
What might not be so apparent to many is the way (body mechanics) the human head moves on the shoulders.
The head twisting left and right as in a 'No' motion and up and down in a 'Yes' motion is normal and making a small circular motion and bending the head on the neck left and right towards the shoulders is normal also.
When hitting the head diagonally (as on the cheekbone) the head doesn't twist (bend or twist in it's normal ranges of motion) and most of the force is felt. (We normally adopt this fist resting on the cheekbone with the elbow taking the weight resting on a table or desk) because it braces the head efficiently.
Same holds true when hitting the forehead in the direction towards the base of the skull. The head stand (illustrates this method best) works because the forehead lines up with the neck and the rest of the body.
Using these two techniques, a slight tap or jolt with the hand (on a person's head) is enough to render a person momentarily unconscious.
The brain bouncing and hitting the inside of the skull and nerve in the back of the neck being abruptly compressed, can cause a blackout.
Many Preachers do this (light touch) to their parishioners on Sundays, delivering one touch knockouts in the name of something holy. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Demonstrating knockout techniques on students |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Seems to bother me and perhaps you also, when teachers knockout their students in demonstrations.
These instructors emphasizes how dangerous these knockouts are and do them without considering the dangerous consequences or potencial of causing long term injuries to students.
There is sufficient film or video footage that confirms these knockout techniques work very well, without the added need for more demonstrations.
Personally I have been knocked out cold. Also had head traumas due to accidents. Literally seen stars going around my head, just like in the cartoons depict them to be.
Nothing gained from being knocked out only aggravating potential future brain damage.
These teachers that knock students out should not be allowed to do so. I put this type of practice on the same level as testing products on animals. |
Couldn't agree with you more. Have had this done to me and never agreed with or subscribed to the practice. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| I have never witnessed a boxing coach or CI giving a class and demonstrating actual knockouts on students, so why is it an acceptable practice in Oriental martial arts and not in Western boxing, that is ironically enough their primary intent? |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| I have never witnessed a boxing coach or CI giving a class and demonstrating actual knockouts on students, so why is it an acceptable practice in Oriental martial arts and not in Western boxing, that is ironically enough their primary intent? |
That thought alone makes me further question the validity of the "no touch" knockout.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| I have never witnessed a boxing coach or CI giving a class and demonstrating actual knockouts on students, so why is it an acceptable practice in Oriental martial arts and not in Western boxing, that is ironically enough their primary intent? |
That thought alone makes me further question the validity of the "no touch" knockout. |
Would make for an interesting 'Ultimate of the Ultimate's" MMA none touch 3 rounds, 3 minutes per bout.
None touch arm locks and none touch throws are also accepted.
Anything goes except contact.
Accidental contact would result in instant disqualification!
No weight classes or weightins necessary. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I remember seeing one of Dillmans no touch KO students- the one on Fox news where they took him to a jiu jitsu school (I think most people have seen that?)
He demo'ed his touchless KO on his students, but refused to try it on the reporter because "she might get hurt." As an alternative he decided to strike her jaw with an open hand strike.... because hitting someone is safer than not hitting them.... I guess.... ? |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
I remember seeing one of Dillmans no touch KO students- the one on Fox news where they took him to a jiu jitsu school (I think most people have seen that?)
He demo'ed his touchless KO on his students, but refused to try it on the reporter because "she might get hurt." As an alternative he decided to strike her jaw with an open hand strike.... because hitting someone is safer than not hitting them.... I guess.... ? |
Yes, I saw that as well. If I recall correctly, his skills were tried in the BJJ class, and they didn't work, "because the BJJ students were very athletic," or something like that.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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One other danger of practicing knockouts on students is that they might want to practice this on younger students, as things can easily be passed on in a downward or even younger direction of 18 years or less.
Children are protected under the law from "phisical punishment" in the from parental discipline; in certain countries.
Children or young teens exposed to "Martial Art CIs" doing knockouts on students is setting a bad example for future generations. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Demonstrating knockout techniques on students |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Seems to bother me and perhaps you also, when teachers knockout their students in demonstrations.
These instructors emphasizes how dangerous these knockouts are and do them without considering the dangerous consequences or potencial of causing long term injuries to students.
There is sufficient film or video footage that confirms these knockout techniques work very well, without the added need for more demonstrations.
Personally I have been knocked out cold. Also had head traumas due to accidents. Literally seen stars going around my head, just like in the cartoons depict them to be.
Nothing gained from being knocked out only aggravating potential future brain damage.
These teachers that knock students out should not be allowed to do so. I put this type of practice on the same level as testing products on animals. |
Are you speaking of pressure point knock outs or strikes to the jaw/head type of knock outs?
Either is dangerous but I really don't see any point what so ever in a striking knockout as it does damage to the brain.
The pressure point knock outs I could see years ago before the advent of video as you mentioned. However today there is really no need to demonstrate this on your students unless you need to stroke your ego like some Kyusho-Jutsu instructors. Not mentioning names!
I see no need ever to knock out one of your students. You can demonstrate without the force necessary to put them down and if they do not have faith in the techniques you can show them video's as proof.
I have been knocked out several times back in my youth and it is not a fun time. It seems that the favorite technique for any new instructor is the Brachial Plexus strike. It works exceedingly well but you come to with a splitting head ache and if struck too hard, can do damage to the spinal cord or the root of the nerve complex, not to mention if you strike the jugular or carotid arteries. This can lead to death if damaged.
It is definitely not in the students best interests and for those instructors that say that they know what they are doing... accidents happen. The death of a student isn't worth proving something when there are other means by which to show them. |
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on the post.
