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MichiganTKD
Orange Belt
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 211
Styles: Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do
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 Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I can't comment on other systems, particularly Japanese or grappling, because I'm not involved in them. But I will say this: In Tae Kwon Do, particularly in the system we practice, 1st-3rd Dan is concerned with physical practice and learning technique. Etiquette and being a good student as well, but primarily technique. If you are a non-Master BB, and living somewhere where practice sessions are few and far between, or not practicing with the Organization in a class, or practicing with just non-TKD people, it is almost like you are retired. You will not advance because you are not really training in Tae Kwon Do with your Teacher.
One of the rules of 1st-3rd Dan is: Follow your Instructor because you need his/her recommendation. If you don't follow me, I don't recommend. You will be one of the MANY people who say "rank is not important", which means "I don't practice with my Instructor anymore."
After 4th Dan, you can practice on your own because a different set of standards are used. But if you are still contributing to Tae Kwon Do (judging, self-practice, helping the Organization etc.) you can advance in rank.
No, rank is not the sole reason to practice. But I find it interesting that the examples above, students who have essentially no contact with their Instructor and just learn what they can learn through whatever means, are the ones who claim rank is irrelevant. Reminds me of the fox who couldn't reach the grapes and then decided they wouldn't be any good anyway.
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My opinion-Welcome to it. |
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benkendrick
Yellow Belt
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Northern Alabama
Styles: Okuno-Ryu Karate, MDK Tang Soo Do, Sohng Ahm TKD, Nippon Shorinji Kempo, Seibukan Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| ramymensa wrote: |
Guess I'd have to wait for 20 years to be able to have my school. We are allowed to open a school when shodans. It take almost 7 years to get to BB or even more ... so I guess we're kinda qualified.  |
took me ten years to the day (that I first set foot in a dojo)... Though I had formally trained in three different styles by that that time... (earning a 3rd kyu in an Okinawan system and 2nd Gup in MDK TSD prior to the Shodan in Sohng Ahm TKD)
I haven't "tested" for nidan though I've been "eligible" to in 3 systems (MDK TSD, United Federation TSD and Sohng Ahm TKD) for various reasons. I guess I'm just a SLOW learner 
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Ben Kendrick
"The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in battle..." |
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benkendrick
Yellow Belt
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Northern Alabama
Styles: Okuno-Ryu Karate, MDK Tang Soo Do, Sohng Ahm TKD, Nippon Shorinji Kempo, Seibukan Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Shorinryu Sensei wrote: |
| My thoughts exactly benkendrick. The journey and end result are far more important than promotions to me also. I'm sure, if I really cared about higher rank, I could have found a way to travel and get more rank, but it just simply doesn't matter to me. |
As long as I feel like I'm learning something new I'm happy myself. Whether that's training by myself, training informally with friends from other systems or formally as a student in a school - it makes no difference to me.
| Shorinryu Sensei wrote: |
| One interesting note on that. I had two students in the past that joined a different organization and now both hold 6th Dans, although they started out under me...one attaining his Shodan, the other a mid-level belt. Are they any good now? I don't know, as one of these students I kicked out of my class because of a poor attitude, and the other left because he rarely showed up and I gave him the choice. Commit to it, or leave. He left. |
I know several people I used to train with at one point or another, most of which were junior to me, who are now 3rd, 4th & 5th dans. Does that mean they're any better than I am or I'm any better than they are? I think not, it just means we've gone down different paths...
I suppose that by the modern way of thinking the higher ranked student is always better than the lower ranked one... Tell that to my yellow belt student who qualified all the way up through AAU NAtionals and then to Junior Olympics (Boy's 16-17 y/o Karate Division - I think) back in '91. At the Junior Olympic's he beat 3 black belts and a brown belt in Kumite. The main reason he didn't go further was that he got tired and lost his 5th fight to a brown belt. (I told him should quit smoking...)
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Ben Kendrick
"The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in battle..." |
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Shorinryu Sensei
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 2045
Location: Kalispell, Montana
Styles: Shorinryu Matsumura Kenpo (Seito/Orthodox) Karate and Kobudo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| You will be one of the MANY people who say "rank is not important", which means "I don't practice with my Instructor anymore." |
This appears to be pointed at me I guess, so I'll respond.
I trained under amy instructor from January 1975 until July of 1980. At that time, he moved out of Montana to Minnesota and basically retired, and has never taught again. As i said before, for nearly 10 years after that, there was only one person that I knew of in the united States teaching the same exact system of karate, and I found out he had bastardized it himself so that it wasn't the same thing.
You can't train with an instructor if you can FIND an instructor...right? Keep in mind..that was during the "pre-internet" days of the martial arts. Today, all you have to do is log on, and hundreds of instructors magically appear at your finger tips. |
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benkendrick
Yellow Belt
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Northern Alabama
Styles: Okuno-Ryu Karate, MDK Tang Soo Do, Sohng Ahm TKD, Nippon Shorinji Kempo, Seibukan Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| I can't comment on other systems, particularly Japanese or grappling, because I'm not involved in them. But I will say this: In Tae Kwon Do, particularly in the system we practice, 1st-3rd Dan is concerned with physical practice and learning technique. Etiquette and being a good student as well, but primarily technique. |
Well, I can comment on them and TKD as well - since I have been fortunate enough to have trained with some of the best teachers in various Japanese/Okinawan & Korean systems. I would like to add to your comment though. Why is it that in many systems (mostly Korean systems From my experience) 4th Dan seems to be this majical rank when the light is finally supposed to click  and one suddenly becomes this supreme martial being who is finally capable of spreading the correct and true art to the masses?
| Quote: |
| If you are a non-Master BB, and living somewhere where practice sessions are few and far between, or not practicing with the Organization in a class, or practicing with just non-TKD people, it is almost like you are retired. You will not advance because you are not really training in Tae Kwon Do with your Teacher. |
So if I'm following what your saying here, if I'm not a Master rank 4th dan or above yet, and for what ever reason I'm not training with my teacher anymore (ie. he/I moved away, or died, etc.) when I practice my TKD (or any other system) it's no longer TRUE TKD? Well if that's true then it really says alot more about his teaching (or lack there of) than it does about my training...
| Quote: |
| One of the rules of 1st-3rd Dan is: Follow your Instructor because you need his/her recommendation. If you don't follow me, I don't recommend. |
Again this is just my opinion - but this type of thinking is why I used to be so prejudiced against Korean martial arts. Fortunately though for me not all korean style instructors buy into this thinking... (maybe only the legitimate ones do  )
| Quote: |
| You will be one of the MANY people who say "rank is not important", which means "I don't practice with my Instructor anymore." |
AAHHHG here we PARTIALLY agree  . For some folks that may mean exactly what you say. But for me it simply means I'm not worried about testing for rank. In fact I work out with my Seibukan Sensei quite regularly (I even have my own key to the Dojo). However, over the last seven years we've been training together he know's I'm just there because I love to learn. And I know when ever I want to collect another rank certificate all I have to do is let him know I'd like to test (If he thinks I'm ready then he'll test me). In fact to be honest, I don't hold a formal rank with the Seibukan. However I do know (and appreciate) much of the Seibukan syllabus...
What's more important the fact that I've sewn on a Seibukan Patch and have a certificate hanging on my wall saying I'm such and such rank or the fact that I've taken the time to learn (as best I can) Wansu, Anaku, Seisan, Passai, Passai Guwa, Naihanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, et al as Kyan Sensei taught them to Shimabukuro (Zenryo) Sensei down through our lineage to my sensei - who now shares them with me...
| Quote: |
| After 4th Dan, you can practice on your own because a different set of standards are used. But if you are still contributing to Tae Kwon Do (judging, self-practice, helping the Organization etc.) you can advance in rank. |
Again I have to question what makes 4th dan this magic number? My Seibukan Sensei was a shodan when I first met him - he'd been one for about 10 years. He's now a 3rd dan. His Sensei was then a 5th dan now 6th (with over 30+ years training in Okinawa). Are you doubting the validity of their rank or ability to teach? You wouldn't if you were priveledged enough to train with them...
| Quote: |
| No, rank is not the sole reason to practice. But I find it interesting that the examples above, students who have essentially no contact with their Instructor and just learn what they can learn through whatever means, are the ones who claim rank is irrelevant. |
I don't think anyone is saying rank is irrelevant. I guess I just come from the opposite end of the spectrum than you - because I find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on rank.
| Quote: |
| Reminds me of the fox who couldn't reach the grapes and then decided they wouldn't be any good anyway. |
Though he couldn't eat the grapes, I bet he still ate none the less... Who know's may be he was lucky enough to catch a rabbit...
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Ben Kendrick
"The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in battle..." |
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MichiganTKD
Orange Belt
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 211
Styles: Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting post Bkendrick. I also noticed on your tagline how many styles you practice or practice. Do you practice all those currently? I find it hard to believe that you would have the time to do all those. The impression I get is that you approach martial arts as a buffet-sample as much as you can without going in depth into one.
Believe me, Tae Kwon Do is no worse than any other style as far as the problems you mentioned. Again, if you are under 4th Dan, you are considered an assistant, responsible to your Instructor. WTF and ITF will tell you the same thing. If you are 1st-3rd Dan, and NOT practicing with your Instructor or being involved with his/her Organization, you will not advance. It doesn't matter how much on your own you practice. If you are happy with this, fine.
I still believe in the Instructor/Student relationship. After 4th Dan, yes the magic number, you are more or less considered autonomous to make your own decisions. But even 4th+ Dans love, respect, and follow their Instructor as a parent. I guess this makes us freaks.
But as far as practicing other styles to make up for not practicing with your Instructor, no, that is not Tae Kwon Do (or any other art for that matter). I doubt if an aikido Instructor would tolerate his student doing that.
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My opinion-Welcome to it. |
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benkendrick
Yellow Belt
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Northern Alabama
Styles: Okuno-Ryu Karate, MDK Tang Soo Do, Sohng Ahm TKD, Nippon Shorinji Kempo, Seibukan Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| Interesting post Bkendrick. |
Why Thank you sir... 
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| I also noticed on your tagline how many styles you practice or practice. Do you practice all those currently? I find it hard to believe that you would have the time to do all those. The impression I get is that you approach martial arts as a buffet-sample as much as you can without going in depth into one. |
You talking to me? Seriously though, I find it hard to believe that instead of addressing the content of my argument you choose to attack my character and dedication. However, never one to back down from a good friendly scrap (verbal or otherwise) I'll address your points....
First point, if you mean "Do I practice ALL of the forms & techniques I've been taught in the systems I listed EVERY time I step into the dojo." Then the answer would be no, I don't. I wish I could but there are only so many hours in the day. However, when I do go into the dojo I do give 100% to what I'm being taught (IF I'm being instructed by my Sensei). In the case of my solo training (heaven forbid a Shodan working out by himself...) I do work on the material I've learned from other arts. In fact I'm in the process of compiling all my notes from those early days of training and cataloging the kata & techniques for my own reference...
Second point, Frankly I could care less what your impression of my approach to martial arts training is. It (i.e my training) is what it is, and it's mine BTW. I don't claim to be some know-it-all Great Grand Master Budo Wanna-be. (though I may come off that way at times )
I come to these boards to learn more about, cuss & discuss one of my favorite topics (martial arts in all it's many flavors) with other positive folks who may have sources of "budo" (mudo for you you korean folks  ) knowledge that I might not otherwise have access to. In a similar vein I offer up the knowledge I have from my experiences walking the warrior's path...
That being said I'll move on to your next point:
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| Believe me, Tae Kwon Do is no worse than any other style as far as the problems you mentioned. |
I've read & re-read the thread and I don't see anywhere, where I said or insuated that TKD was any worse than any other style as far as the problems mentioned. Heck, I love TKD. In fact I've got a black belt in it. And a lot of what I taught my private students was based in the TKD I've learned.
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| Again, if you are under 4th Dan, you are considered an assistant, responsible to your Instructor. WTF and ITF will tell you the same thing. |
I think I've beat this horse a time or two. But let me elaborate on my point of view a bit more here. you said, "If you are under 4th Dan, you are considered an assistant, responsible to your instructor. WTF and ITF will tell you the same thing." --- I don't doubt or dispute that at all.
Why you may ask, because that's their standard, that's fine for them - more power too them. I do find it highly ridiculous (and insulting) that you seem to insist that anyone from any other MA organization or system must follow their (the WTF or ITF) standard to be considered legitimate, true training.
BTW - Quick history lesson, after WWII when TKD as we know it today was being put together, how many of the Kwan founders had rankings of 4th dan or higher in the JAPANESE, CHINESE & OKINAWAN arts that they had studied and used to formulate what has become Modern TKD. I don't have the exact statistics but I'd venture to guess not too many. I believe Gen Choi was only a 1st or 2nd Dan in Shotokan. What was he thinking? 
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| If you are 1st-3rd Dan, and NOT practicing with your Instructor or being involved with his/her Organization, you will not advance. |
Duh! that's a gimme... Naturally if your not around your instructor or involved in the parent organization you are NOT going to advance in rank. That is unless you're testing yourself.... (HEY, now theirs an idea... Maybe I can be a 4th dan after all)
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| It doesn't matter how much on your own you practice. If you are happy with this, fine. |
So If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that no matter how much time I put in at home sweatin my butt off working on my kihon, kata & kumite I'll never get any better - UNLESS it's in my Sensei's dojo.
Well I guess I have been wasting all these years... I guess that means students in your organization aren't asked to or expected to work out at home (since working on your own with out Masters watchfull eye is so pointless)...
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| I still believe in the Instructor/Student relationship. |
So do I, it's part of the foundation in any true martial training.
However, since God gave me a brain and my instructors have given me the knowledge, I think I can put 2&2 together. If not Sensei is just a phone call/email or dojo visit away. (presuming that Shodan means I've learned the basics and am ready for deeper study.)
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| After 4th Dan, yes the magic number, you are more or less considered autonomous to make your own decisions. But even 4th+ Dans love, respect, and follow their Instructor as a parent. I guess this makes us freaks. |
<BANG> I already shot that horse earlier, so I won't bore the rest of the forum beating that one anymore. (Besides I'm not a Master so I shouldn't think for myself anyway...)
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| But as far as practicing other styles to make up for not practicing with your Instructor, no, that is not Tae Kwon Do (or any other art for that matter). |
This last point has me scratching my head... So let me ask you this, If i start training in an art and for one reason or another (usually due to relocation & assuming I haven't reached the magic dan level) I'm no longer able to train with my teacher or in that style - what am I supposed to do?
| MichiganTKD wrote: |
| I doubt if an aikido Instructor would tolerate his student doing that. |
It's funny you should say that, in fact I still have a very good relationship with every instructor I've ever been priviledged to train with. In fact I often go back and train with several of them when ever I happen to get the chance. To date, I've always been welcomed and treated like I'd never left...
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Ben Kendrick
"The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in battle..." |
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MichiganTKD
Orange Belt
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 211
Styles: Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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You know, I'm not going to argue this because it would accomplish nothing. You have your point of view, and I have mine. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just our opinions.
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My opinion-Welcome to it. |
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DLopez
Purple Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
Location: Houston, TX USA
Styles: Kuk Sool Won
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:13 am Post subject: |
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My instructor, currently a 2nd degree black belt, started his school two years ago when he was just 1st Dahn. He was 1st Dahn for quite a while too because he stopped training for a couple years before getting back into it. He was promoted to 2nd Dahn approximately one year after opening his school.
Now, if we are to believe that belt ranking is truly the only indicator of one's ability to teach, then what is the explanation for the following events?
Last October, 18 of his students, myself included, attended our very first Kuk Sool Won World Championships tournament. Along with individual competition in techniques, forms, and sparring, each participating school is in competition for recognition as a "Top 10" points winner. Schools from across the US and even other countries were represented at the tournament.
Our 18 students excelled in the competition, and our little school placed 8th in the Top 10 points winners, beating out many other schools with many more students competing.
2003 Kuk Sool Won World Championships Results
There is no way we could have accomplished that if our instructor was not competent in his instruction and guidance, regardless of his belt ranking compared to instructors of other schools. BTW - our instructor won 1st place in his category of 2nd Dahn Senior.
Looking back, I have no qualms about the fact that he was just a 1st Dahn when I started training under him, because he still knew far more than I did, and what he did know, he knew very well. I believe he trained us very well too.
That should have been impossible if we are to conclude that 4th Dahn is the magic rank where you're now suddenly capable of teaching well.
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Dean
Dahn Boh Nim - Black-Brown Belt
Kuk Sool Won
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow." - James Dean |
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yoriki816
Yellow Belt
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 42
Location: Southern U.S.
Styles: Shodan Yoseikan Aikido, Shodan Goshin Jujitsu
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Okay I'm going to jump in on the discussion. I believe all of this talk about what dan rank one should have before being allowed to open a school shows that many martial arts are simply putting the cart before the horse. When I step into a dojo I only ask two question regarding the experience of the instructor. Neither of these has anything to do with formal rank. The first is how long they have been training in the style the are teaching and the second is how long they have been teaching. Experience is far more important to me than how many pieces of paper they have hanging on the wall.
I am only a shodan, yet have trained for twelve years consistantly. And due to some unusual circumstances, I ran my own dojo for three years during which time I did not have dan rank. Did my students perform poorly on their exams because of my low "ranking". In fact, they all performed quite well, being of a similar skill in almost every category as the students who trained in the school where they were tested. Teaching is not about the belt certificate you hold, it's about the experience with both the curriculum and the ability to express it to other students who want to learn from you.
To say a nidan or sandan shouldn't run their own dojo would strike me as saying that the organization may need some quality control. Because if some one with that much "rank" cannot be trusted to impart the basics to a new student or even a mid level student, then I doubt that I would want to join an organization that trains their teachers so poorly.
Mind you that's just my two yen.
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Matt Gilliard
Shodan- Yoseikan Aikido
Shodan- Goshin Jujitsu |
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on the post.
