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GhostFighter
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Joined: 19 May 2004
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Styles: Krav Maga + Thaiboxing + Boxing

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:26 am    Post subject: The vertical fist Reply with quote

At Krav Maga they teach us to use the vertical fist because this would be a faster and safer in street fights then the horizontal fist.
I am still in doubts because i feel the horizontal is more powerfull striking with vertical fist just seems so out of place for me so i usually go with the in between of those two, the 45 angle.
What is ur take on this, which one do u prefer and why?
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DWx
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From most positions I would guess the vertical fist is a lot more natural. The majority of people tend to guard with the fist in this sort of position already so its not that much effort to throw a punch out there. Having said that, a lot of styles expect some sort of twisting motion when throwing the horizontal punch in order to get it out there faster, isn't really that effective if you start horizontal and just continue the movement out, so you'd start off in a similar position anyway...

One thing you do notice with the horizontal punch with things like board breaking is that if you don't get the full rotation on the fist and land the punch off of horizontal, all of the power goes straight through the middle finger knuckle rather than both index and middle finger ones. Seen a lot of people damage their hands this way as often its too much for the knuckle to cope with because its not conditioned enough to take the full force of a punch on its own. So maybe vertical is safer unless you can make sure your horizontal works effectively every time.
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joesteph
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The vertical fist is faster, GhostFighter, not only in getting there, but also in retracting. It's also harder for the opponent to see if it comes from a rising position (as in your hands were down, you found you had to throw a punch quickly, and so your fist rises from that position that wasn't "on guard").

Another way that the vertical fist is faster is with repeated punches. That horizontal twisting motion takes time, and if you compare strikes against "air" or against a target, you can throw more left-right-left-etc. punches if it's vertical rather than horizontal. Of course they're both good, solid punches (quality), but sometimes speed for more is just of the essence (quantity).

A funny thing noticed about the vertical fist is that, if you go to full extension, the climax of the punch will likely naturally have the fist be at 45 degrees. This is more evident when punching air than a target, but, concerning punching through the target, you might just touch the target still vertically, but the climax of the punch, within the target, will likely be 45 degrees--a bit of a turn that you don't even have to think about performing.
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Daisho
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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Location: NJ
Styles: Miyama Ryu (Judo, Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, Aikido, and Jojutsu)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the vertical punches better for close quarters, because you can fire them off like pistons in an engine, since it allows you to retract so quickly.

Against a moving target, it might be easier for you to throw a twisting punch, cause for me, it's far easier to make minute adjustments while it's being thrown.
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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
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Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, BJJ, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a matter of comfort, postion, and situation. I don't stress too much about what to use or the postion of the fist. It's too much to think about. I'm more concerrned with matching the weapon that I'm throwing to the target I'm trying to hit. That't it. If one will serve better than the other, then that's what I let pop out, I don't try to course correct on how the subconcious reads the angle I need.

Generally speaking outside of situation specific encounters, my punches typically come into contact with a target around 45 degrees of rotation between the two.
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Daisho
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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Styles: Miyama Ryu (Judo, Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, Aikido, and Jojutsu)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey tall, i agree. I don't typically think about which strike I'm going to use either, but i do make adjustments during the fight.

The vertical punch, for me, is much easier to make minor deflections against by hand checking. If I notice the person I'm squared up against is in a proper boxing stance, or using a high guard, I do consciously open with twisting punches. However if I can get to the body it's instinctive for me to switch to vertical piston punches.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the vertical fist better. I think that everything lines up in the forearm, and on up the chain, better than with the horizontal twisting punch. I don't think that a twist adds as much power to the technique as is thought.
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joesteph
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I don't think that a twist adds as much power to the technique as is thought.

I remember meeting a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do some time ago, with whom I'd had a conversation about the Isshinryu vertical fist and the TKD horizontal one. He told me that the benefit of the horizontal fist is that, when there's impact, the twist tears the skin.

I don't think he thought of this himself; I think he was told this either by a higher belt or his instructor. And, no, I didn't ask him if he'd ever witnessed anyone's skin being torn by a horizontal punch. I just let his "observation" pass.

I'm not knocking the horizontal; if it works for someone, s/he should use it. Personally, I believe the vertical and 45 degrees are best for me, and I've found that, at full extention of my arm, with a boxer's twist on the ball of the foot of the side/arm that's punching, my fist goes horizontal.
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DWx
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKDTutor has a 9 page discussion on vertical vs horizontal:
http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Hands/Punching/HorizontalVertical/HorizontalVertical01.htm
Haven't had a chance to read through yet but you all might be interested.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The horizontal punch may tear skin, but this happens more readily with a glove on, I think. With bare knuckles, I think you can dig a cut in either way.

And even if you can't, which is your goal? Cut the guy, or knock him out?
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