Anti Grappling or Learn Jujitsu?

Alan Armstrong · Black Belt

1#. Is anti grappling techniques a waste of time for stand up styles to learn?

2#. Should a stand up fighter just cross train in a Jujitsu ground fighting style to be an all round fighter?

Damaged Vertebraes in my neck are not going to stand up very long to chokes and head lock techniques, so what would an experienced grappler recommend in my situation 1# or 2# ?

Tempest · Green Belt

Ok it is possible to learn some anti-grappling techniques, but the thing that makes grapplers dangerous is not the techniques, it is the training methodology and practice.

I am not an expert in all, or even most, areas of martial arts, but the things that I can do, I KNOW I can do them under the most stressful of conditions because I have done them at full speed against an INTELLIGENTLY resisting opponent that knew the methods I was going to use and still couldn't stop me.

THAT is the key component that makes grappling effective. If you have an anti-grappling strategy that passes that test, then do that, but I have never SEEN an anti grappling strategy work, that was not based on knowledge of a grappling system.

All of that being said, jiujitsu is not necessarily the be-all, end-all of grappling. Lots of VERY good catch wrestlers, Judo players, Sambo guys, and olympic style wrestlers. And if you are in the US, we have a very strong tradition of high-school/collegiate folk wrestling here.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

Alan Armstrong · Black Belt

I had a stronger, younger, faster, bigger, opponent that put me in to a side headlock, yes I used a technique to get out of it that worked.

In all honesty if he did it a second time, lights out for me!

So the question is, as anti grappling techniques are not sports regulated then perhaps they are better suited for self defense stand up fighters?

As I don't want to grapple, unless the situation requires it, anti grappling seems more like the way to train than becoming a grappler?

Tempest · Green Belt

Depends on what you mean by anti-grappling?

I had someone try to hit me in the nuts once when I was trying to demonstrate that the mount was a superior position because the person on the bottom cannot effectively strike from there.

I was not pleased, they did not escape, and they should count their blessings that I ONLY applied an arm bar.

I am usually sceptical of techniques that people claim are "not sport" because usually it means that it won't pass the test that I described above.

Realistically, any technique that is based on sound physiological principals CAN work, but whether it usually WILL, that is, is it a high percentage move against a trained, intelligently resisting opponent, that is an altogether different thing.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

Alan Armstrong · Black Belt

Anti grappling implying that I would rather stay upright on my feet than having a confrontation rolling on the ground.

Sporty implies imposed rules such as Olympic style wrestling.

An anti grappling moves such as sprawling comes to mind, still having the soles or toes of the feet, contacting the ground.

Tempest · Green Belt

The sprawl, though, is a wrestling move. It is very effective at preventing takedowns. How much of your body is contacting the ground depends largely on the intensity and skill of the person trying to take you down.

For example, if some guy who has at best maybe had an hour of wrestling tries to shoot a * double leg, I might not even REALLY sprawl, I might just drop my center and push his head down.

But, if I am defending a double leg from, for example Daniel Cormier, you can bet the front of my hips are going to hit the ground as anything less will result in him either powering through or adjusting the angle and picking up an ankle or single leg.

Grappling and counter-wrestling is also a matter of understanding what you are up against.
MOST of the top MMA fighters in the world are top quality stand-up fighters and strikers, but the REASON they can be successful at what they do is they are good enough wrestlers to not get taken down, or if they are taken down to explode to their feet again quickly.

Along with the sprawl, I would work the technical stand up, the combat base, and the standard escapes and survival strategies from all ground positions as well gripping, pummeling and clinching.

These are a few of the "counter grappling" strategies that I KNOW work, but I don't know anywhere to learn them that doesn't teach a grappling art.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

Alan Armstrong · Black Belt

You have been very helpful Tempest.

I'm not exactly in the "exploding to my feet" age that you describe. More like "Phew! I can still get back on my feet"

I like the survival strategy training idea; going to look in to that.

If you have any Youtube videos worth recommending, I will appreciate any links you know of.

Very grateful (Tempest) for your time and efforts.

Tempest · Green Belt

Before I recommend specific videos, I will actually go old school on you and recommend a book.

www.beginningbjj.com/BJJ%20Roadmap%201.3.pdf
It is a free 35 page book that covers an overview of BJJ, positional heirarchy and explains some of why grapplers think the way they do.

In my opinion it is a great resource to start with. Once you are familiar with that, then it becomes a matter of exploring each position, including standing and clinch work, for those survival strategies and escapes that I mentioned.

For example,
Lesson 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIHbtNS0ZX8
Escaping the mount.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

sensei8 · KF Sensei

Great discussions going on here between you two!! Please continue, and hopefully others can add something, but as for me, I'll refrain for the moment because you two on powerfully proponents of the subject at hand!!

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**Proof is on the floor!!!

tallgeese · Black Belt

Having been a stand up guy for years, and then moved to jiu jitsu pretty much full time, I've seen both sides of this discussion. For my money, the most effective way to counter grappling is to actually learn to grapple.

By occasionally engaging in anti-grappling training you'll not get the intimate understanding of body mechanics and positioning that is needed to successfully contend with takedown. A handful of sprawls, frames, and escapes does not equal and comprehensive understanding.

Now, I'm not saying that you need to give up stand up and become a grappler, but a couple of years of regular training will pay dividends. You'll have an understanding of body contact takedowns, and hence how to prevent them. An understanding of position on the ground, and how to escape it. As well as a lot of escape from bad positions. This will also give you a much more realistic understanding of the limitations and advantages of striking while on the ground. As Tempest mentioned, there are a lot of misinformed people out there who have too much faith in striking from bad positions to free themselves. With a year of axillary study in a grappling art, you'll start to have a good, realistic understanding.

There's no quick fix to dealing with the pressure that a grappler can exert on someone who's never had to deal with it once they get ahold of you. Now, once you've got a deeper understanding, it doesn't take a ton of time to learn to survive. That's where you've got to get to, in my opinion. The best way to do this get to grappling.
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