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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they donít all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.

The Gracieís challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one canít continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew theyíd most likely lose. It wasnít that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most werenít prepared for that.


But there were rules. For instance it could only be one on one, you couldn't have friends help you out. No weapons were allowed. There were also rules against biting and eye gouging. There is always rules of some sort.


No martial art worth studying would include "get my buddies to help me whip this guy". The point of the fights was to show how effective each fighter was. Not to destroy other people. The Gracies never had anyone help their fighter out.

It is true that no weapons were allowed except your hands. But it was the same weapons your opponent had. You were equally armed.

The rules against biting and eye gouging didn't come along until later. But people rarely did it because even instinctively, they understood Bas Ruttens now famous saying: "Never escalate the level of violence in a fight you are losing."


I actually think this is one of the best arts out there. Back up counts. Now, I get it's outside the context of the thread. Understood. But never underestimate the force multiple a buddy or two bring to an encounter. Even the simple fact of divided attention that must occur on the part of the individual wanting to hurt you is a nice leg up.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
Tempest wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Still, no. Styles are not created equal because they donít all teach the same
Thing. Even among those that do (judo and bjj) with the emphasis on different things, the outcome and skill sets are like night and day- so YES what style you train in absolutely DOES matter.

The Gracieís challenged people to fights. No rules no muss- 2 guys go st it until one canít continue, just like real life would otherwise be. The kickboxers who turned the fights down did so because they knew theyíd most likely lose. It wasnít that they wanted different rules- they wanted no rules. Most werenít prepared for that.


But there were rules. For instance it could only be one on one, you couldn't have friends help you out. No weapons were allowed. There were also rules against biting and eye gouging. There is always rules of some sort.


No martial art worth studying would include "get my buddies to help me whip this guy". The point of the fights was to show how effective each fighter was. Not to destroy other people. The Gracies never had anyone help their fighter out.

It is true that no weapons were allowed except your hands. But it was the same weapons your opponent had. You were equally armed.

The rules against biting and eye gouging didn't come along until later. But people rarely did it because even instinctively, they understood Bas Ruttens now famous saying: "Never escalate the level of violence in a fight you are losing."


I actually think this is one of the best arts out there. Back up counts. Now, I get it's outside the context of the thread. Understood. But never underestimate the force multiple a buddy or two bring to an encounter. Even the simple fact of divided attention that must occur on the part of the individual wanting to hurt you is a nice leg up.


Sure, bringing backup to a fight is a good idea. But don't mistake that for making you a more effective fighter.

Now, if you are talking about specific teamwork training that military and police forces use to take on dangerous situations, that's a different thing. But that training, at least in most effective departmental training, is done IN ADDITION TO individual training.

Because the truth is, your buddies may not always be there to back you up even if it is literally their job. Especially in small agencies.
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright so if grappling arts, and specifically ground grappling arts, are superior to other arts than why isn't everybody doing them? For the past twenty plus years I will say that grappling arts have gained much popularity and you will find many more schools now that teach grappling arts than you would've twenty plus years ago but still, at least from my observations, most of the schools that teach martial arts teach striking based styles. Even schools that do teach some grappling will often primarily be striking schools and the main style they teach is a striking based style and they will teach grappling just as an afterthought. It stands to reason that if ground grappling was always superior to other forms of fighting that everybody would be doing it.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
Alright so if grappling arts, and specifically ground grappling arts, are superior to other arts than why isn't everybody doing them? For the past twenty plus years I will say that grappling arts have gained much popularity and you will find many more schools now that teach grappling arts than you would've twenty plus years ago but still, at least from my observations, most of the schools that teach martial arts teach striking based styles. Even schools that do teach some grappling will often primarily be striking schools and the main style they teach is a striking based style and they will teach grappling just as an afterthought. It stands to reason that if ground grappling was always superior to other forms of fighting that everybody would be doing it.


Ignorance is probably the most common reason. Most people merely do not know any better. They also assume (just as you did) that anything worth doing would be done. You are making very dangerous assumptions and Iíll further explain why.

First off, youíre assumi that whoever is teaching whatever is some how qualified, or that theyíre even good at what they do if they *are* wualified. A good majority of martial arts schools I s come across have never been in an all out fight in their lives. As such, thereís no testing ground- everything is merely theory. This leads to several dangerous leaps of faith, one being that this guy is teaching you something thatís even applicable.

We live in a capitalist society. If someone wants to learn how to defend themselves effectively, they need to partake in a program thatís about 6 months long 2-3x a week with regular sparring sessions at or close to full resistance. This is reality. Many donít like reality. As such when someone comes around and promises them success in a short time without hard work, many are intentionally obtuse and buy the product. This allows them to live in a fantasy world with others that did the same thing- while simultaneously attempting to avoid reality....

Now I bring this up because weíre talking about fighting. There is a large group of people who do not do martial arts for any martial reasons as it were. Therefore many of these statements would not apply tonthem
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XtremeTrainer wrote:
Alright so if grappling arts, and specifically ground grappling arts, are superior to other arts than why isn't everybody doing them? For the past twenty plus years I will say that grappling arts have gained much popularity and you will find many more schools now that teach grappling arts than you would've twenty plus years ago but still, at least from my observations, most of the schools that teach martial arts teach striking based styles. Even schools that do teach some grappling will often primarily be striking schools and the main style they teach is a striking based style and they will teach grappling just as an afterthought. It stands to reason that if ground grappling was always superior to other forms of fighting that everybody would be doing it.


It depends on what you're doing martial arts for. This is what determines if something is superior or not. How does that art function in a given environment?

So, the ruleset that has developed in MMA leads one on a path of MT, wrestling, and grappling as a general rule. Those arts in conjunction are superior for that environment.

A RBSD system such as Blauers may be superior for a single mom worried about getting from work to her car.

If you're wanting general fitness and flexibility and could care less about combat application Tai Chi may be superior to everything mentioned to date.

Superiority is defined by function per the individuals needs.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
XtremeTrainer wrote:
Alright so if grappling arts, and specifically ground grappling arts, are superior to other arts than why isn't everybody doing them? For the past twenty plus years I will say that grappling arts have gained much popularity and you will find many more schools now that teach grappling arts than you would've twenty plus years ago but still, at least from my observations, most of the schools that teach martial arts teach striking based styles. Even schools that do teach some grappling will often primarily be striking schools and the main style they teach is a striking based style and they will teach grappling just as an afterthought. It stands to reason that if ground grappling was always superior to other forms of fighting that everybody would be doing it.


Ignorance is probably the most common reason. Most people merely do not know any better. They also assume (just as you did) that anything worth doing would be done. You are making very dangerous assumptions and Iíll further explain why.

First off, youíre assuming that whoever is teaching whatever is some how qualified, or that theyíre even good at what they do if they *are* qualified. A good majority of martial arts schools I've come across have never been in an all out fight in their lives. As such, thereís no testing ground- everything is merely theory. This leads to several dangerous leaps of faith, one being that this guy is teaching you something thatís even applicable.

We live in a capitalist society. If someone wants to learn how to defend themselves effectively, they need to partake in a program thatís about 6 months long 2-3x a week with regular sparring sessions at or close to full resistance. This is reality. Many donít like reality. As such when someone comes around and promises them success in a short time without hard work, many are intentionally obtuse and buy the product. This allows them to live in a fantasy world with others that did the same thing- while simultaneously attempting to avoid reality....

Now I bring this up because weíre talking about fighting. There is a large group of people who do not do martial arts for any martial reasons as it were. Therefore many of these statements would not apply to them


Reality is hard work. Self defense is physically demanding. Fighting is the most physically demanding thing most people will ever do. Fighting to preserve life or property, which is what we are talking about when we say self defense as not nearly enough people are signing up for conflict communications classes or buying Marc Macyoung and Rory Millers books, is even more extreme.

So what we really mean by self defense is fighting to defend life or property. This is a physically demanding task that cannot be made easier except by getting as used to it as possible. And there is no one here who will claim that striking based styles don't or can't work. But it is a LOT harder to do than it appears. And if you want it to work, it should look more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO8Jr59fypA

Than this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9HB9r-sRV4
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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RW
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 327


PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we're talking strictly competition (e.g. sport) or fighting applications where everything goes, karate would be one aspect - striking.

Ideally you need a striking art, a takedowns art and a ground art, for example, karate, judo and BJJ, or muay thai, wrestling and BJJ.
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XtremeTrainer
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 89


PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RW wrote:
If we're talking strictly competition (e.g. sport) or fighting applications where everything goes, karate would be one aspect - striking.

Ideally you need a striking art, a takedowns art and a ground art, for example, karate, judo and BJJ, or muay thai, wrestling and BJJ.


My primary art is Karate but I am also training in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Although Gracie Jiu Jitsu focuses mostly on groundwork there is a certain amount of standup grappling and takedown work in the art.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a teenager, I got beat up. One lad initiated the attack. I managed to throw him to the ground quite quickly. I was in a dominant position on the ground for about 2 seconds, before all his friends decided one on one was a bit boring. Had I have used my wits, there's a chance I could have fired off a quick volley of strikes before legging it.

A few years later, a fight broke out at a party in was at. One person, a young man with military training and very, very strong, much stronger than I, pinned another lad and was repeatedly punching him in the face. I intervened. It took remarkably little effort to restrain him from above and behind while he was on the floor.

Being on the ground is a distinct possibility in a real scrap. Being there by choice, and staying there, is pure insanity.

No doubt it works in a strictly one on one unarmed match with two people who are approximately equal in strength and weight, but real situations are rarely so straightforward.
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JazzKicker
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 134
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first started out years ago, long before MMA, my dojo had both judo and karate classes. Almost no one cross trained. I tried for a little while, but our sensei (who was an Olympic judo coach) advised it was best to stick to one (if I wanted to get good). As far as practical self-defense, the thinking was a judoka just needed to have a good punch and kick, too. Made sense, but I got banged up a lot more in judo, so I concentrated on karate.

Fast forward 10+ years and dan ranks later, it was time not to be a purist. I had to unlearn some things, and over time, added JKD, Hapkido, Tai Chi, boxing, wrestling.

Each added something to round out my skills, though I'm by no means a master of any of them. It's good to branch out, but it's still a trade-off that you will not master any one thing that way.
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