Add KarateForums.com
Vote For Your Favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2017!
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Instructor Central
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

MatsuShinshii
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 716
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kusotare wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
I guess this is so they can be afforded the opportunity to train/learn as much as they can about the new art in hopes that they can maintain their current grading?

The reason I ask this is, having the understanding that Japanese Karate translated to some Okinawan Karate (non-modernized) will have different movements, body mechanics, ways of striking, ways of receiving and ways of kicking not to mention the throws, joint locks, etc. etc.

I wonder how many can, even knowing the same Kata (albeit with some differences), relate and adapt in 6 months not to mention learn all grades up to their present. I take it if they are graded as a Nidan in their other art you would put them with the Shodan, Nidan and Sandan students instead of starting them with the basics of the art? I can not see them maintaining present grade any other way. If they started from Hachikyu (or whatever Mudansha grade you start at) I think it impossible to progress this fast in 6 months unless they are taking private one on one lessons, as the other students will not be on a fast track and this would do nothing short of making things difficult for many to help one.

How practical is this in making sure they understand the foundational techniques, movements and the like, learning differences in Kata, learning new Kata and the nuances of your art within a 6 month window?

I get the general idea I just don't know how practical it is and how much slips through the cracks trying to maintain their present grading. Personally I see no reason to allow a student (not a visitor) to wear a belt they received in a different art unless the arts are very similar and study the exact same Kata with no differences or very little differences.

The point is if you have never studied the art you should start as others do, a white belt. Learn the art and don't let a grading from another art and your ego cloud the learning process of the new art. Empty the cup so to speak.

However I think this is probably the best explanation of how to afford a student wishing to maintain present grade the ability or at least a fair shake at the ability to maintain said grade I have heard of thus far. I guess it all still comes down to the instructor and where they feel they need to be, whether that is maintaining, degrading or advancement.

I would think after a week the instructor would already know where they fit into the grading but I'm thinking the 6 months is affording every opportunity to the student.

I find no fault in your methods but find major fault with the student that allows themselves to think that gradings transfer. Too much EGO.


The above process is typically applied for students who want to join our Wado-ryu group from another Wado-ryu group.

We have however also applied it to folk who have come from Shotokan groups, however I agree with you, it is not applicable for someone who has come from say a Judo background.

The 6th month period is not really to teach folk a new 'system' but rather the nuances of our particular group.

K.


Thank you for the clarification. That makes good logical sense and I can understand and appreciate your process.

If they are within the same art but from another school this would be very appropriate. Not sure I totally understand the Shotokan concession but I think I read somewhere that Wado is Shotokan and Goju. To be honest I've never studied it and have little knowledge of the art.

If this is a correct assumption how well does this process work considering that they would need to learn the Goju kata. It's not like the two arts are similar. I would think this would weed out a lot of would be Yudansha based on the amount of material to learn.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Kusotare
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 562

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Not sure I totally understand the Shotokan concession but I think I read somewhere that Wado is Shotokan and Goju. To be honest I've never studied it and have little knowledge of the art.

If this is a correct assumption how well does this process work considering that they would need to learn the Goju kata. It's not like the two arts are similar. I would think this would weed out a lot of would be Yudansha based on the amount of material to learn.


The founder of Wado-ryu studied under Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan).

Prior to training in Karate however Hironori Otsuka was a Menkyo Kaiden in Japanese Bujutsu.

On the surface, Shotokan and Wado-ryu appear fairly similar (they are however quite different underneath as a result of the predominance of Shindo Yoshin-ryu within the Wado system).

The above mentioned 'conversion process' would only really work for lower kyu grades in such cases.

It would be next to impossible for a Shotokan dan grade to convert to a Wado-ryu dan grade.

As to the Goju connection well, there is very little. We practice Seishan (a Naha-te kata), but within the Wado spectrum of things it is done for different reasons.

K.
_________________
Usque ad mortem bibendum!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

mushybees
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 104
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu (Wado-kai)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to elaborate more on Wado Ryu.

Hironori Ohtsuka received his menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin Ryu in 1921 and began training with Funakoshi in 1922 and earned his shodan in 1924. I believe he was running his own school by 1927 and introducing jujutsu principles which eventually led to a split between the two by 1935.
Ohtsuka also trained for a time with both Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu where he explored kumite and its merits.
IMO the short spell training with Funokoshi is given undue prominence when discussing the origins of Wado ryu.
Nakamura Yoshin Ryu jujutsu was already a heavily atemi focused koryu. Ohtsuka saw a lot of value in the okinawan te but he didn't abandon the jujutsu principles of his art. He augmented them.

The only exposure most get to wado is competition kumite and kata where almost every style becomes homogenised and at the lower kyu grades Wado can look like generic shuri-te karate.

Outside of shiai kumite Shotokan and Wado are fundamentally very different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Kusotare
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 562

Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mushybees wrote:
Outside of shiai kumite Shotokan and Wado are fundamentally very different.


Perhaps more accurate to say that Shotokan - as done today - and Wado-ryu, are fundamentally very different.

Footage and photos of Funakoshi and Otsuka in the 1920's shows a much more upright approach (compared to todays very deep shotokan stances).

Shingo Ohgami also has photos of Otsuka and Funakoshi performing Idori on his website.

So, whilst I would agree that they are fundamentally different (probably more to do with the pedagogical approach - as a result of Wado's connection with SYR and TSR) - they were perhaps a little closer in the early stages.

K.
_________________
Usque ad mortem bibendum!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 1609
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on the purpose of the visit, dan graded visitors should be allowed to wear their belt IMO. Some examples...

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and attained a godan rank in jujitsu. He came back home for close to a year during his father's illness and subsequent death. He trained at our (karate) dojo and taught some classes there as well. We (the students) enjoyed his stay and appreciated his contributions to our dojo, even though we weren't a jiujitsu dojo. His insight into our own kata bunkai was a welcomed alternative. There was no student-teacher relationship between him and my CI; they taught each other and considered each other equals.

Visitors during stuff like open floor/mat should wear a white belt. I worked out at a Uechi Ryu dojo during open floor times for a semester in college. I didn't need to be told to do so, but was anyway - I wore a white belt, even though I was a shodan in another school. I would've only worn my black belt if they INSISTED.

I came to my present dojo after earning a shodan and invited to test for nidan in a school that was started by former Seido senseis. The curriculum is about 95% identical up to nidan. Nidan and up is where the former senseis' really made the change. I started as a 10th kyu (white belt), and tested for nearly every rank since (I double promoted the first 2 belts). 2 and a half years later, I'm a 3rd kyu. Yes, there was 15 years between leaving one place and starting at my current dojo, but I was just about where I was within about 6 months.

Why start at white belt again?
A - I didn't care
B - my current teacher nor anyone else in my current organization gave me any rank
C - what's the difference?
D - I didn't feel like I was worthy of it anyway

Visitors within our organization wear their rank. They're part of the family. We have several people of all different ranks within our organization drop in somewhat regularly, and they all wear their rank. One is a recently promoted 6th dan who owns a Seido dojo about 3 hours away. He comes to train with our CI from time to time. Another is a yondan who comes in every year during his fraternity reunion which is 10 minutes away from our dojo. He lives 3 hours away. He's brought his kyu ranked kids a few times too. If I go to our honbu or another Seido dojo, I wear my rank.

If you're exchanging ideas with the CI, working together, or giving a seminar, you wear your rank. If you're a student in the new dojo, or are attending open floor, you wear a white belt.

My CI has had plenty of people wanting to join from different arts and karate organizations who thought they should be able to wear their own belt. None were allowed to. The only outsiders who wore their own belts were guests, not students.
_________________
Vote for your favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2017!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 1609
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sensei8,

As a curiosity question - what did you wear when you visited Nakamura's dojo? Ninomiya's dojo?
_________________
Vote for your favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2017!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12907
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Sensei8,

As a curiosity question - what did you wear when you visited Nakamura's dojo? Ninomiya's dojo?

Because of our premise was of a seminar, we were allowed to wear our black belts, but at their insistence, and not ours.




_________________
Vote for your favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2017!

**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Instructor Central All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >