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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 45
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crane..........

My exact Sentiments
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DarthPenguin
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 134
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally it is something that i think has very little actual bearing on my training etc. It is nice to know you are studying something that came from country X, and has been around for ages but it's the effectiveness of the training itself and the instructors that matter to me.

As a simple analogy, i am proudly Scottish and the Gracie family are originally from Dumfries and emmigrated to Brazil (we used to get members of the family over regularly since they wanted to learn about their roots and referred to themselves as Scottish-Brazilian). They then were taught a Japanese martial art when in brazil and named it brazilian jiu jitsu. I can't think of anyone who would think of referring to it as Japanese (even though all the core techniques at that time would have been found in Judo) or Scottish (even though the founders were all Scots). Tbh i only refer to it as BJJ rather than just jiu jitsu when conversing with people who are also aware of Japanese jiu jitsu to differentiate it. The country it originated from just doesn't seem really important to me - other than giving a pointer to where a lot of the best practitioners can be found.

Same with Karate in my book. Is it Japanese or something else? I'm not really bothered! Do i enjoy my training and believe my instructor (and their lineage) are legit? Yes i do. Thats all i'm really bothered about.

Again this is purely a personal view, and probably completely missed the point of the original question!
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 380

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a Tang Soo Do or Korean Karateka, I see two meaning that mean 1 thing:

Karate: China Hand

Tang Soo Do: The Way Of The China Hand


Now you can rename it to "empty hand" or to "taekwondo" is fine and all. By all means do so but you cannot change the origin of the art regardless of preference.

Also the horse stance is a game changer. With passing of time, I see how important it is to dedicate time to it. It increases your ceiling potential. To that end, we practice it as much as we can whenever possible.

In conclusion, my karate comes with a Korean seasoning ( Taekkyon) and then there are different Japanese or Okinawan seasoning as well. But the meaning is pretty clear. Changing it doesn't change a thing. The origin point is Kung Fu because that was the original meaning of karate.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15773
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
As a Tang Soo Do or Korean Karateka, I see two meaning that mean 1 thing:

Karate: China Hand

Tang Soo Do: The Way Of The China Hand


Now you can rename it to "empty hand" or to "taekwondo" is fine and all. By all means do so but you cannot change the origin of the art regardless of preference.

Also the horse stance is a game changer. With passing of time, I see how important it is to dedicate time to it. It increases your ceiling potential. To that end, we practice it as much as we can whenever possible.

In conclusion, my karate comes with a Korean seasoning ( Taekkyon) and then there are different Japanese or Okinawan seasoning as well. But the meaning is pretty clear. Changing it doesn't change a thing. The origin point is Kung Fu because that was the original meaning of karate.

Solid post!!



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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 45
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:21 pm    Post subject: Spot on Reply with quote

Hey,Himokiri
Spot on!

It all dervived from KUNG FU!
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Sailor Sindbad
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 19

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS is China hand: 唐手
THIS is empty hand: 空手

Karate is the latter, meaning that "tang soo do," is not a translation of the word "karate."

If you were to argue that, and if I were to concede, here's something we have to look at: the deal with perception being reality.

Here's a good example that can equate to this: the Italian word for ice cream is "gelato." So whether you're eating Breyers or Talenti in Italy, they're both "gelato" there.

However, outside of Italy, gelato is considered to be a totally separate thing from ice cream. You refer to Talenti as "ice cream" outside of Italy, and everyone will look at you like you lack any social grace.

So even if "tang soo do" and "karate" meant the same thing, the question is whether or not that's the general perception.
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eighthundred
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 16 Sep 2021
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The word "karate" itself is Japanese, not Uchinaaguchi. While I will always say that karate is Okinawan, I don't consider anyone to be wrong if they say it's Japanese.


This is probably closest to my own thoughts on the subject.

Quote:
We all know it was definitley of chinese origin brought to the ryukakku islands now Okinawa and then spread into mainland Japan. eventually spreading all over the World.


What makes you think it's exclusively Chinese in origin? Chinese influence is clear, but everything I've read suggests an amalgamation of Okinawan martial styles with Chinese styles.

Quote:
is this a trick question????...lol..... if so then, YES it is japanese , if not it would be called Kung-fu........hmmmm....lol


So it's not kung-fu because we call it karate? Language is clearly a differentiating factor, which I understand clearly, but I absolutely disagree that kung fu is karate or vice versa.
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eighthundred
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 16 Sep 2021
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
As a Tang Soo Do or Korean Karateka, I see two meaning that mean 1 thing:

Karate: China Hand

Tang Soo Do: The Way Of The China Hand


Now you can rename it to "empty hand" or to "taekwondo" is fine and all. By all means do so but you cannot change the origin of the art regardless of preference.

In conclusion, my karate comes with a Korean seasoning ( Taekkyon) and then there are different Japanese or Okinawan seasoning as well. But the meaning is pretty clear. Changing it doesn't change a thing. The origin point is Kung Fu because that was the original meaning of karate.


There's a whole lot of nuance to this that I'd probably have to start another topic on. But just so I'm clear... are you saying karate is Chinese?

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
THIS is China hand: 唐手
THIS is empty hand: 空手

Karate is the latter, meaning that "tang soo do," is not a translation of the word "karate."

If you were to argue that, and if I were to concede, here's something we have to look at: the deal with perception being reality.

Here's a good example that can equate to this: the Italian word for ice cream is "gelato." So whether you're eating Breyers or Talenti in Italy, they're both "gelato" there.

However, outside of Italy, gelato is considered to be a totally separate thing from ice cream. You refer to Talenti as "ice cream" outside of Italy, and everyone will look at you like you lack any social grace.

So even if "tang soo do" and "karate" meant the same thing, the question is whether or not that's the general perception.


To add to this... look at pizza.

Depending on where everyone lives in the world one's idea of pizza may be different. I'd argue that most of the world now thinks of the pizza created by Italian immigrants in America (the US), which is different from actual Italian pizza. But people still might generally understand pizza as being Italian food. So which is it?

I personally feel American pizza is American food. It's had over a century to develop and become its own thing -- from access to ingredients to even how the sauce is made. I generally feel the same way about karate, which, depending on style, also has over a century worth of development in a generally specific location, that makes it different from its source of origin.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 136


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eighthundred wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
As a Tang Soo Do or Korean Karateka, I see two meaning that mean 1 thing:

Karate: China Hand

Tang Soo Do: The Way Of The China Hand


Now you can rename it to "empty hand" or to "taekwondo" is fine and all. By all means do so but you cannot change the origin of the art regardless of preference.

In conclusion, my karate comes with a Korean seasoning ( Taekkyon) and then there are different Japanese or Okinawan seasoning as well. But the meaning is pretty clear. Changing it doesn't change a thing. The origin point is Kung Fu because that was the original meaning of karate.


There's a whole lot of nuance to this that I'd probably have to start another topic on. But just so I'm clear... are you saying karate is Chinese?

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
THIS is China hand: 唐手
THIS is empty hand: 空手

Karate is the latter, meaning that "tang soo do," is not a translation of the word "karate."

If you were to argue that, and if I were to concede, here's something we have to look at: the deal with perception being reality.

Here's a good example that can equate to this: the Italian word for ice cream is "gelato." So whether you're eating Breyers or Talenti in Italy, they're both "gelato" there.

However, outside of Italy, gelato is considered to be a totally separate thing from ice cream. You refer to Talenti as "ice cream" outside of Italy, and everyone will look at you like you lack any social grace.

So even if "tang soo do" and "karate" meant the same thing, the question is whether or not that's the general perception.


To add to this... look at pizza.

Depending on where everyone lives in the world one's idea of pizza may be different. I'd argue that most of the world now thinks of the pizza created by Italian immigrants in America (the US), which is different from actual Italian pizza. But people still might generally understand pizza as being Italian food. So which is it?

I personally feel American pizza is American food. It's had over a century to develop and become its own thing -- from access to ingredients to even how the sauce is made. I generally feel the same way about karate, which, depending on style, also has over a century worth of development in a generally specific location, that makes it different from its source of origin.
it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...
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Sailor Sindbad
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 19

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...


This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style.

While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was.

So far, we know two things:

1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And,

2. It doesn't take a century for this happen.
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