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eighthundred
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 16 Sep 2021
Posts: 13


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...


This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style.

While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was.

So far, we know two things:

1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And,

2. It doesn't take a century for this happen.


I am talking about some of the current styles of karate that were founded in the 1920s-30s. But this brings up another point. Some have alluded to karate being a general term, while others have alluded to the term karate being the focal point of the question of this thread -- questioning if karate Japanese. While I don't necessarily disagree with either, 'karate', or the history, people, and ideas that form it, obviously existed before the term; either current or former meaning. This is why I believe it's way more nuanced than when the word was first coined.

To answer the two points Sailor Sindbad made:

1) Exactly, and this applies to karate itself. At what point did what we now know as karate cease to become ti, tegumi, kenpo, kungfu, etc.

2) I would agree but with the caveat that this evolution and development is likely happening at a much faster rate within this past century than in the past. This is simply due to access and technology. I would generally say three generations or a half century is a good benchmark.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eighthundred wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...


This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style.

While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was.

So far, we know two things:

1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And,

2. It doesn't take a century for this happen.


I am talking about some of the current styles of karate that were founded in the 1920s-30s. But this brings up another point. Some have alluded to karate being a general term, while others have alluded to the term karate being the focal point of the question of this thread -- questioning if karate Japanese. While I don't necessarily disagree with either, 'karate', or the history, people, and ideas that form it, obviously existed before the term; either current or former meaning. This is why I believe it's way more nuanced than when the word was first coined.

To answer the two points Sailor Sindbad made:

1) Exactly, and this applies to karate itself. At what point did what we now know as karate cease to become ti, tegumi, kenpo, kungfu, etc.

2) I would agree but with the caveat that this evolution and development is likely happening at a much faster rate within this past century than in the past. This is simply due to access and technology. I would generally say three generations or a half century is a good benchmark.
yeah that’s my point. The old official modern style that I have seen is shotokan and it’s still only 94 years old, and several more years away from being distinctly different from what funakoshi taught on Okinawa….so no karate has had a century to become their own thing.
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...


This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style.

While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was.

So far, we know two things:

1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And,

2. It doesn't take a century for this happen.

I agree with both points.
However even if we assume ti/te still classifies as karate, it’s still Japanese because Okinawa is part of Japan.

As for point 2 yeah a major divergence can happen almost overnight if someone is intentionally trying to make their own thing. Sort of like judo and aikido in regards to jujitsu. In both cases the founders of both styles had a specific intent to take jujitsu and use it to create something new and different.

If i added 3 take downs, 4 pins, and 5 reversals from American collegiate wrestling and added that to goju ryu, and instituted a unique competition rule set, I would have created something that is clearly different from goju, but arguably still karate, and while I have little experience with wrestling I could make those changes in a few years at most.
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2022 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said Lions Den
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Montana
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 837
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's Okinawan Karate, Japanese Karate, Korean Karate, American Karate, African Karate, etc. Pick a country, they have their own ideas of "karate"

But historically, Karate, as an organised system, began in Okinawa. Funikoshi took it to Japan (Shotokan), Japan took it to Korea (TKD), yadda yadda yadda. In each case, it was a watered down version of the origional. Shotokan developed from Okinawan karate, but only took the hard elements, adapted it to the Japanese mindset of more disciplined and warrior like. Wehn it went to Korea they added a native system into the Shotokan that emphasised more kicking, less hands.

Each country took what they saw as good from a system, discarded the rest, then made changes to it to make it their own.
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Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
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